These firms are notorious for their carrot (probable on-site opportunities) and stick (mindless work hours clocking among others) approach, and their typical workplace is full of discontent and frustration. Just for an example, I have known people working there who were trying to game the clocking system by finding a bug that allowed them to leave early provided they clock before midnight from any of the offices which would increase their clocking hours.
That aside, these firms are just a small part of the actual tech scene in India, except they have sheer numbers when it comes to the H1B process, which kind of projects these firms as representative entities of Indian engineers.
This is expressed in many ways, from xenophobia to the rise of Bernie Sanders & Donald Trump. People don't want another corporate owned shill like either of the Clintons, both Bushes, and Obama, and I'd wager that Obama knew this in 2008, hence why he made sure his moderately grassroots organization was put out to pasture safely.
We need to stop the union busting, bring back workers rights, prosecute Walmart & T-Mobile for their union response teams (where most potentially "infected" employees are fired), and fight for a better future.
I think we should open our borders, but when it comes to employment we should strive to avoid what has happened in Canada, where low cost workers from overseas work at every single Tim Hortons.
>where low cost workers from overseas work at every single Tim Hortons.
This isn't reality I think you need to check your information sources.
That being said Obama was no angel, TPP, SOPA & PIPA were all corporatist bills he fought for alongside Keystone XL, and he was happy to feed the military industrial complex while warmongering overseas while letting the drug wars continue in the US.
Why waste our resources on stupid wars and bad policies that most Americans dislike?
People conveniently ignore the fact that we receive as many immigrants from Europe as from Asia (including India but excluding the Middle East).
I think that parallel to the 'Polish plumber' we had the 'Indian call center' stereotype happen. The call to the call center was a horrific thing, thank goodness that off-shore madness came to an end. Along the way I think a lot of things were tarnished, any work with an Indian company would have overtones of the call center nightmare years.
My hypothesis: Increasing automation puts pressure on the job market, leading to such sentiment. We're seeing this effect, the world over. And India being the largest low-cost English-speaking tech-center will feel this effect the largest.
I guess the silver lining is that this will stop the brain-brain from India, hopefully leading to a more stronger local tech and other industries.
I'm saying "give jobs to locals than outsiders" is tribalism. (Not saying if it's right or wrong -- just that it's by definition tribalism).
I don't want my wage to lower just so people in the third world can live better because I, honestly, don't give a fuck about them. That's the sentiment that's rising lately.
It's hard for me to sympathise with the view that "the real unfairness here is that people born in miserable conditions are happy to do my job for less, so I'm the victim here".
Fair to whom? A government has to be fair primarily to their subjects. It's their subject's trust and resources that mandate government's power. Outsiders haven't contributed with nothing prior to their coming so it's unfair to give them equal amount of consideration about anything in the first place.
I have seen in India even in same nation people from one state want to throw out people from different states as they are taking jobs and resources that are supposed for locals.
The govt is already working really fast, and in general all govts have been working fast since 1991.
Making a market and nation building is just hard stuff.
How are you going to make product firms from scratch?
By building a market?
For that at the very least you need connectivity - the current govt has always focused on laying infra and highways.
But that still means people need money to buy stuff, and we have a hugely messed up labor market with a strong dependence on agriculture.
We're 50 years away from anything like what people may want to hear to have a "good" ending.
But this is also a market for people who are able and capable of getting their hands and heads truly dirty.
I think the key is convincing expats to come back, which is hard.
This same discipline leads one to encapsulate work better. A senior data scientist goes for £700/d in London; theres a significant advantage to being able to use her counterpart in Delhi.
It is salary arbing. It is also inevitable. Companies buy services that they could perform themselves more often than not, in order to keep focus on core business. After a certain price they don't.
Forcing the immigrants away pushes up prices, which literally changes the internals of companies and how and what they buy over time. this is constantly afoot but there's an inherent risk that any given change may be for the worse.
We had a saying about TCS in our college "trespassers will be recruited". And they asked chemical engineering and GK questions during the placement tests. It was so weird when I think about it now.
Competition is really fierce in Indian engineering colleges. The ratio is 1 out 10K (or something similar) for getting into good colleges so you end up picking any branch you can get.
I'm not sure how it is in other countries though.
You can hire these people, and they'll accept extremely noncompetitive wages (lowers wages), over-saturates the labour market (lowers wages), AND gives a nice boost to PR because on the outside it seems like this company is "diversely hiring from all backgrounds".
Unfortunately, he can't get a visa for the one (Chinese) employee who really needs it (to plan out the factory and begin many million dollars of investment), and can't get a reason why out of the immigration department. Nobody in Australia can do the job because they don't have experience with current gear (Australian manufacturing is today basically a few specialist, legacy facilities and some defense-related stuff only) and it's only documented in Chinese.
Because the guy is wealthy and well connected and Australia is a small place, he managed to get some phone calls directly with the Immigration Minister, Mr. D., who essentially said "re-apply, I can't do anything". Meanwhile, the target region (with no jobs) has lost 200 planned jobs (including 30% committed to be allocated to disabled workers, and others likely to be allocated to challenged demographics such as aged workers) and the significant accompanying economic stimulation from the planned facility, and the guy is paying 10s of 1000s a month in opportunity costs. True story, this week.
In Australia for example it has NOTHING to with Indians and the situation is basically the same in all the countries listed. It is pure politics within the right-wing governments in power caused by the rise of nationalism, the struggles of blue collar workers who have been left behind and the fear of terrorism.
Politicians are so scared of being flanked by the right (e.g. Tony Abbott in Australia) that they are pushing the anti-immigrant angle at every opportunity. But if you look at the details you will see that any immigration changes are more about "feeling good" than doing anything substantive. For example recent changes in Australia have seen a "values" test added which is hilariously pointless. And in fact we have made it easier for highly skilled migrants to enter the country e.g. Indian IT consultants.
Is this headline accurate? Are numbers of immigrant workers reducing?
The H1B visa program is always over-subscribed more than 4x so if the number of applicants decreases, there is still the same number coming in.
Every country looks to be trying to reduce low-skilled immigration which is fair enough.
Its tiring these days that every headline is made alarmist by lumping all immigrants into one big group. Illegal immigration vs legal immigration is always referred to as simply "immigration". Low skilled vs high skilled = immigrant. Temporary working visa vs. foreign-born US citizen = immigrant.
I don't have a personal experience with indian companies and/or engineers, so don't have a personal opinion on that matter. If anything, it seems strange to me to translate an opinion about outsourcing companies from a poor country to top engineers from that country immigrating abroad. But regardless of whether that opinion is valid or not, people believe it and it certainly has an impact.
He explained that most of his peers don't enjoy or like what they are doing. They chose to become a developer, because it's a potential path to become a 'manager', which has a higher status in the eyes of their parents, friends and family.
Edit: But we have to be careful not to stereo type. I think a comment made here is pretty good 'Shit code doesn't have nationality'. We just need to understand the motivators for people to become an engineer and if the joy of creating something with code isn't up there and it's mainly about money or a stepping stone to higher status, then code quality will suffer as it seems.
Thus, we can't just generalize.
Thank you for forwarding!
Apart from social status, the career path is also a way to earn enough money for a decent lifestyle.
It obviously has if they come from a country where education is generally shitty when in comes to know how to code.
I'm not saying that's the case with India since I know nothing about the education there, but as a general proposition, yes, it seems obvious that people from some a particular country can be generally shitty coders due to their education system of course.
But this works as well. Thats why TCS, Infosys, etc are billionaire dollar enterprises.
It has more to do with IT resources from India generally tend to be the sweet spot of cheap enough and good enough (for a cheapskate, penny foolish myopic offshoring companies) resources.
This "meme" is nothing but some racist stereotype pushed by old commenters on Slashdot style website who paint themselves to be next turing award material.
Guess what the Market never lies and you get what you pay for! Those who pay the best/most still have large number of indians throughout the hierarchy.
So that meme is nothing but outright xenophobia not too different from the ones propagated in past against Italians, Irish, Japanese or Jews.
I'm sure a proper indian engineer wont do this stuff, but the quantity of indian people who make bad code (and bad english) amazes me.
The quantity of anything in a 1.2Bn people nation will surprise you.
The ratio however, is a different point. I'm not saying your conclusions are wrong. I'm just saying that quantity isn't the right factor to draw conclusions. Specially, for a country like India.
>> Are you sure you are not suffering from observational bias or some fallacy? With a shit colored lens, I can replicate the same observation for almost any other nationality.
However, I also worked with a couple of really brilliant ones...
But then again I also worked with non-endian programmers that shared all the same characteristics in my 30y career.
However, I also have to say that some of the poor endian programmers manage to play the 'diversity' card very well; I know one that I wanted to fire the first day he arrived as he was clearly completely incompetent. HR was involved, and he still managed to waste time and resources for eighteen months before he actually ...quit...
I hate to say it, but I do suspect that a boring white guy would have been fired well before the end of his first month... During all that time, the guy was reported for completely faking demos, lying about task completions, but he still manage to survive 3 'performance improvement plans' from HR.
(dont really have any experience working with their code, but in general I'd say that the Indians I went to school with were the more competent of the bunch, if you want to compare grad students to undergrads at least)
It shouldn't be this hard, Freeswitch literally does most of this for you (LCR & multi-domain), it is just a matter of building a simple GUI on it.
I'm all for having reasonable Politically Correctness on HN, it just seems weird in this case.
The whole debate on suppressing incomes is quite debatable. Though one can see the argument for people who have spent decades working exclusively on legacy systems. When these become cost centres, companies try and outsource them.
The brief period that I spent working for an Indian outsourcer, I noticed almost every project was about maintenance of legacy systems.
As an example, Kroger has a support center for its Fred Meyer brand of stores in Portland, OR. As of last year, they were paying $12hr while expecting in depth networking knowledge, familiarity with SUSE & SunOS, and the ability to write moderately complex scripts for these legacy systems.
Comparatively, another employee who was transfered from Portland to Cleveland went from making a little over $14hr to $120k a year, as the market in Cleveland is apparently so barren of talent that poaching is a serious issue.
There are in general very few people who can work with or want to work with legacy systems and therefore does demand a very good pay but it does not add any value to the American economy.
(Hint: He'll be lining his pockets.)