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Ask HN: Is Accidental Complexity Growing Faster Than Essential Complexity?
147 points by ern on Mar 27, 2017 | hide | past | web | favorite | 59 comments
I've recently been involved with a few line-of-business projects recently that have been fairly successful. They all use well-honed agile principles, and they met the requirements that their Product Owners had of them, and by all measures were successful.

However, simultaneously, I'm seeing a great deal of technical complexity being introduced to systems: microservices and SPAs (with all the attendant web stack complexity) being the most common. A lot of it seems to be driven by a need for developers to keep their CVs shiny, or because smart developers want cool things to play with, or because of "Google envy". There seems to be very little engineering justification for these approaches in most cases, and technically simpler approaches would work better.

I've been thinking about Fred Brooke's Mythical Man Month, in which he described 2 forms of complexity: Accidental Complexity as being technical in nature, while Essential complexity relating to the problem domain, and being more intractable.

Although Essential complexity remains stubborn in business systems, I believe we are slowly getting to the point where it is being tamed through more responsive (agile) dev practices, leading to happier customers who get software that does what they expect. On the other hand, I feel that accidental complexity is exploding, and for the first time in my career, it is growing at a faster rate than essential complexity, and masking a lot of the gains we are getting from improved processes. Is this a fair observation, or am I just jaded?




I work for a large company in the automotive space. I can say that most of the accidental complexity I see is related to shoe horning solutions into technologies that we happen to have licenses for as opposed to what is the simplest and most robust solution.

The kind of over-engineering for the CV polishing almost always comes from our college hires. It's not really their fault, as I understand the attraction to the shiniest object when your a newb. When their monstrosities are allowed to make it into production, however, is when you have a dev manager that doesn't really understand software engineering.

For my part, I used to scream from the mountain tops that we were over-engineering everything, but now I just let them fuck shit up cause I'm tired of trying to save people from themselves.


Many companies have too many engineers (and some not enough). This is mainly due to #engineers = f1(revenue || vc money) while it should be #engineers = f2(problem). Mostly because our industry has no clue about f2 and so falls back to f1.

But this also works with business thinking, e.g. CEO thinking

techbudget = 0.1 * revenue

With the law of the used budget (all people always use up their budget of fear to not get the budget next year when they might need it), CTOs use the whole budget

#engineers = techbudget/salary

so f1 is often

#engineers = f1(revenue) = (revenue * 0.X - hosting - laptops - licenses)/ salary

and with salary >> hosting, salary >> laptops, licenses -> 0 due to open source usage,

f1(revenue) = revenue * 0.X / engineer salary

(the 0.X is determined by VC experience/push, negotiation between CEO and CTO, how much of a tech company the CEO sees his company or from his previous experience, most probably on a wholly different tech business model).

with no need to understand the tech challenge at hand.

For startups and high margin tech business, there is often a large tech budget, so many engineers are hired (also other forces like capability building, war of talents etc. - some startup CEO tell me their VC said they need to hire 100 engineers until the end of the year - this is without knowing anything about the tech problem at hand).

Coming to your point:

If there are too many engineers for the essential complexity they create accidental complexity.


A near optimal one is f2(x) = 5

:)


Most efficient is f2(x)=2 or f1(x)=1 I think, not sure yet :-)


I'd say 2 because code reviews are one of the rare "methodologies" that improve quality in my experience.


You'll enjoy these two videos from Alan Kay and Uncle Bob Martin, respectively:

"Is it really 'Complex'? Or did we just make it 'Complicated'?" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubaX1Smg6pY

"The Future of Programming" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecIWPzGEbFc&list=PLcr1-V2ySv...


I honestly don't think it's any worse than it has been before. Back in my youth it was "components". If you can encapsulate functionality, then you should be able to compose it like tinker toys. So let's build these "reusable" components which act like black boxes. We'll nail up the API to the wall, and use some kind of versioning scheme to ensure that it's always backwards compatible. We can even build frameworks that standardise the communication between these black boxes and provide language agnostic object representations. Hell, we can even build database interfaces around that concept and pass business domain objects back and forth directly. And we can hide the complexity of the object-relation mapping in another framework.

Yeah, that will simplify everything :-). It only looks shiny because the people doing it weren't around in the 90's to get sick of it the first time around. Ah... who am I kidding? 4GLs have been around since the 70's... :-P


Yes, but "components" as a concept actually works. Why do you think we keep seeing attempt after attempt to bring the concept into the browser UI ?

Software development with components as building blocks maps well to our mental model of how you build things and is extremely productive. Despite the amount of grief that drag and drop GUI builders receive for being too simple, not being explicit MVC, etc., you won't find a better way to allow new developers to learn how to use a tool and be immediately productive with smaller projects. The Delphi and Visual Studio IDEs had it 100% right in this regard. That's why you see so many LOB applications from the late 90's, early 2000's still kicking around that used Delphi's VCL/Visual Studio's WinForms. They got out of the way and allowed people with in-depth business knowledge to create actual solutions. In the long run, isn't that the most important measure ?

I will agree with you on ORMs, though. There's never been more of a case of "putting a square peg in a round hole". Sometimes, the best you can do with disparate systems is to just talk the language of the system that you're interfacing with and stop trying to make it be something that it isn't. Put another way: if your "avoidance" code ends up being 50% more complicated than your "direct" code, and prevents the developer from understanding how the whole interaction occurs, then you've committed a grievous error in architecture. There are ways to make such interfacing easier without making it be completely different. For example, with SQL one of the most difficult things to deal with is result set binding/retrieval, and this was solved rather early on with classes/components that eliminated the complexity of doing so with APIs like ODBC. We should have stopped there.


Yeah, I'm not really arguing that it doesn't work. There are definitely use cases for it. The main thing is that the simplicity is a facade. Generally it's achieved by limiting scope. But as the scope creeps upwards, the complexity of the machinery starts to overtake the complexity of the problem. The biggest issue is that there is a considerable amount of technical lock-in. The solution is so specific that it becomes impossible to change your mind later in the project. Techniques like refactoring are impossible because you've already baked in the subsystem decomposition early, early in the process. The whole thing becomes a brittle mess. But for certain problems (or putting up a quick MVP that you might throw away later), it can be very useful. And as you said, it can be an excellent way to build projects of limited scope with people who are heavy on domain knowledge, but light on programming expertise.


There isn't anything intrinsic to the Visual Studio/WinForms or Delphi/VCL environments that prevents you from refactoring an application into a more structured manner as it grows. They simply don't shoehorn you into an enterprise development model for applications that don't require it (or don't require it initially). Thousands upon thousands of large business applications have been written in both, so obviously they were perfectly manageable for that purpose (2-tier, N-tier, web back-end). The point is to create reliable software that satisfies your business needs. One company that I'm familiar with built a beautiful application server/front-end UI in Delphi that uses SQL Server as the database server and serves 160+ concurrent users every day. The front-end UI was a ~16MB .exe, and the application server was a ~8MB .exe, both with no dependencies other than using Windows Vista or higher as the target OS. It was a very impressive application (I wish I had wrote it), and served the ~$45mil company very well.


I use an ORM with a popular web framework (Eloquent/Laravel) in the PHP space.

What I've always done is use the Eloquent AR approach for simple stuff where it fits well but actual complex querying is done with 'raw' PDO/SQL since frankly writing complex compound queries using the ORM is more wordy and less understandable.


In retrospect the 1990s components craze feels rather modest compared to what's happening now though, even if you allow for stupid ideas like CORBA IDL which hardly anyone ever used.

Right now it feels like every single tiny aspect of devops or JavaScript compilation/bundling or UI layouting alone has become more convoluted than the entire 1990s software stack.

I realize that we are doing a lot more with software now. But comparing only stuff that we used to do back then as well, like creating line of business applications, analysing some data, or create single user productivity apps, I can only shake my head in disbelief at the incredible loss of productivity.

I believe much of it is driven by a desire to architect every little app as if it had to scale to Facebook or Google size tomorrow, use Web technology for tasks that it is completely unsuitable for, and define "right tool for the job" in such a granular fashion that we end up using at least three database systems, three programming languages and scores of other distributed thingies in every single project. Just look at those "our tech stack" posts that come up frequently. It's insane every single time.

Now it's microservices. What used to be components with well defined interfaces sending SQL to an RDBMS in the 1990s has become a swarm OS processes with networking, service discovery and HA infrastructure in between. To keep it running you need some sort of cat herding devops and monitoring system. The possible failure states are beyond the capacity of human cognition.

But it makes total sense if you're a huge corporation that has an entire team working on each of those services. For Amazon it could indeed reduce coordination effort, increase accountability and make the system easier to scale. For a team of 5 or 10 people it's pure insanity to put a network between two "services" that don't absolutely have to scale independently.

We're scaling out everything instead of scaling up, even though scaling up is hugely more efficient up to a scale that 99% of all projects never grow into. In some cases (particularly in data analysis), we're paying 60% margins to cloud hosting companies for clusters that could be replaced by a single laptop using a simpler architecture.

The Web is such a great thing for all the new things it enables that we simply couldn't do at all in the early 1990s. But I really have to ROFL every time someone says "right tool for the job" and then goes on to layout a data entry form using CSS.

Here's my prediction: We're going see clusters of AIs running on top of AWS GPUs to optimize line of business apps for AWS pricing structures that no human being is able to fully grasp any more. And all of it will be set up by highly paid consultants sold by armies of salespeople.

Here we have an explanation for the productivity conundrum that has economists scratching their heads. So much more sophisticated technology and hardly any productivity growth. How come?


Scalability! But at what COST?

McSherry et. al.

http://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/hotos15/hotos1...


It sounds to me like you are in a software company with a lot of inexperience.

I have seen people spin up massive map-reduce clusters to perform something AWK could do in half the time. And I have seen spend enormous amounts of time training neural nets for something a simple SVM could do. In both cases (and most similar cases I have seen) a lot of needless time and energy was expended.

But why? This is my hypothesis anyways...

There seems to be two primary pools of people who feed into the software engineering. Those from engineering disciplines and those from research disciplines. Engineering schools can be fairly cut throat; limiting the number of candidates who can move on at various stages, or designing courses to reduce the number of enrolled students. Those from research disciplines are required to create novel ideas which are worth publishing just to graduate their programs. And those that actually like academia believe (and rightfully so) that creating new ideas is the way towards notoriety and success.

That means a lot of the craftsmen who would prefer making tiny refinements on well understood paradigms are simply weeded out from the discipline before they can even enter it.

I have known very smart people who quit engineering in college because they could simply not stand being in a room of people where everybody wanted to be the "smartest in the room".

Of course... the incessant CV polishing in Silicon Valley probably doesn't help either.


Well, a theory is that Agile is responsible for both. While its short devlopment cycles help deal with essential complexity (you understand better the customer's problem because you have more interaction with them), it also implies incremental coding which often increases the accidental complexity.

As an example:

After a short development cycle, you created a database schema where each Client class has a single address, and because it was done quickly, the address fields are in the same Client table.

In a second development cycle, your customer tells you that their clients may have one or more address and one of them is the primary. The quickest path to delivery is to keep the address in the Client table as the primary address, and add a secondary address table.

While short development cycles help in not screwing up large requirements, it also impairs our ability to see the larger picture, and cause us to take decisions that we need to undo afterwards.


Your simple example of associating a Customer/Client to an Address is a great one - it could be that a really simply approach is required, or you may actually need the powerful features around such things that some high end ERPs support.

In a previous job I spent a lot of time trying to get a shared understanding of what "customer" actually meant (this was initiated by realizing that the Customer Loss Ratios that execs wanted were really nonsense). This eventually turned out to be a non-trivial problem.


that sounds more like a symptom of forgetting to include refactoring in your agile loop, than an inherent issue with small iterations.


Yes, in this tiny example, it could be avoided by adding a simple refactor in your second iteration.

In general though, the customer may ask you some iteration that he doesn't realize imply a complete rewrite of the code. Like:

"now I want the same thing, but I want it available 24/7 with no downtime".

Or "Now we have a great text editor, we want to add live collaboration".

"You know what would be great: that we could see what changed between 2 versions of the spreadsheet".


true, and it's hard to work around unreasonable customer requirements. In the ideal circumstance you would have that conversation and explain that having 100% uptime guaranteed is basically impossible and aiming for e.g. 6-sigma uptime requires high ongoing costs - but I'm sure we've all experienced that "I can have it both ways" attitude.


I have noticed several developers deliberately introduce accidental complexity for the sake of job security. Just to make it really really hard for a new person to do any thing with it , they create a hostage situation where you have to do a full gut of his or her work and redo it. This is more evident in a situation where the teams are geographically distributed and the main team (typically in USA) feels insecure that their jobs are going to India or some other country where software maintenance is cheaper. The problem of accidental complexity is very serious for large enterprise software companies who have aging products typically on a Microsoft stack so those engineers who have spent a decade coding and maintaining it tend to be happy with a crooked way(hacks and workarounds - Undocumented of course) of doing things which gives them an unfair advantage. To conclude; accidental complexity is a political tool introduced by developers deliberately of reasons best known only to them


It is easy to look at this from a functional and practical standpoint, take any program in your stack, and look at what it does vs what you need it to do.

There is a parallel to this where people were trying to where people write c++ programs in visual studio realize they often can do so without needing the microsoft visual studio runtime and its routines and their program drops from 68k to 2k and a dash of code to bring back what is missing in most cases, if it is even needed. https://hero.handmade.network/forums/code-discussion/t/94

I love looking at things and thinking about this, people in this field often find themselves over-implementing(or using software that is a source of over-implementation), setting up a tremendous amount of foundation to get a little thing done, getting carried away, and finding out it got too involved and over-engineered when there is a tight and simple solution that matches exactly what is needed.

Of course there are situations where microservices are still needed: https://semaphoreci.com/blog/2017/03/21/cracking-monolith-fo... Everything should be thought out and joining the latest craze isn't necessary. If you really need it, you will find yourself looking for or implementing the solution, regardless of what it is currently called, microservices have been around in one form or another before the hype, and used as needed when needed, instead of getting being used to wax a resume.

Your accidental vs essential comparison has real world monetary consequences. There are many examples that while it might take 2-3 months to stop and think and analyze what is going on instead of adding to the pile, you can save 100k-300k a month for even smaller scale deployments.


I agree 100%. I'm beginning to feel a lot of 'developers' live in a circle jerk where they share about how awesome they are and other developers tell them how awesome they are, unless it makes the other 'geniuses', what many above-average intelligent people in my generation are told from a young age, feel too inferior.

Hubris is a real observable phenomenon in the history of economic bubbles, paradigm shifts in scientific/technologic progress, and in recent events in media, politics, and business.

We need to start questioning business-as-usual as much as possible. Everything can be simpler, less egocentric, and more beneficial to all parties.


I've been working professionally in software for 20 years. Anecdotally, I'd say that line-of-business software has never been more reliable, more extensible or had better user interfaces than it does now.


The consequences of accidental complexity are now much greater because everything's more intertwined, and the systems as a whole, larger. This puts us in "Ghengis John" (John Boyd) territory, close to the point where we don't have enough attention to fix all the problems that arise, including from the fixes themselves. Probably you youngsters are actually better about not introducing complexity needlessly, since the consequences of doing so are ever more obvious.


I'm just getting to the point in my career where I've seen this happen a couple times. I believe it's cyclical. OO came and complicated everything and that died down. WYSIWYGs came and complicated everything, those have died down. Huge frameworks came and complicated everything, and largely died down. SPAs and Microservices came and will soon die down. I think every few years of new blood introduces a critical mass of complexity.


Edit: I just checked the meaning of 'died down' and it means 'to reduce in strength' not 'to become literally dead'. So, my comment isn't really a correct response to the parent but I keep it here.

Do you really think all those concepts died? IMO, they aren't dead, they have been assimilated. We learned from OO and it's now a tool you can use almost everywhere when you need it. But we also learned to not try to model everything in an OO paradigm.

You can say the same thing for your other examples. You have a phase where the concept/techno is being seen as the silver bullet that will save us all. That brings a lot of adoption. People do mistakes. We (hopefully) learn from them. The hype fades away, concepts are consolidated and assimilated in stable and mainstream tools.

But that takes time. And I'm not sure how things could work differently. Don't we need the hyper-hype phase to experiment and learn about the concept/tech?


OOP is definitely not dying down - outside of the startup bubble it's still the predominant way code gets written. Silicon Valley may be building everything in Scala and Haskell these days but the rest of the world is still built in Java, PHP and C#.


"... perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away ...", Antoine de Saint Exupéry

This is true for requirements but also for used technology.


There have been various improvements in programming that reduce accidental complexity but they don't apply in every area. For example, Ruby on Rails makes it easier to create an MVP, but scaling an application to millions or billions of users will still require working on many layers of "accidental" complexity (since scaling isn't an inherent part of solving the problem). Running applications in the browser also adds "accidental" complexity since certain details of the product now need to be defined in both the browser and the server. Testing can also get more complicated as there are more layers and services interacting with each other. It seems as hardware and software improve, the demands on them increase as well. So we can't just relax and enjoy a world of Essential complexity.

Meanwhile as machine learning gets more advanced, it's able to tackle certain "essential complexity" problems that were supposed to always require hand-coding by a human programmer. So there are trends working in many different directions.


I really can't address the issue of overuse of microservices in a line of business app type project, but I want to push back about little about "SPAs" being "accidental complexity" here. I imagine by "SPA" you're referring to the use of a JS framework like AngularJS, Backbone, EmberJS, React(and some type of models), etc.

While I agree that sometimes there is no need for these in a simple CRUD app, I'd also caution that depending on your basic needs (frontend validation, autosave, keyboard shortcuts, etc) and frequently, on more complex client requests (like for fast JS-driven form navigation that requires some sort of frontend routing, or to save to some industry-specific file format, and such), you can easily end up with a big spaghetti ball of JQuery if you're not careful.

I've seen these balls of tangled JS all too often in line of business apps, and they're a nightmare to maintain or modify. The point of using a framework is to provide some sort of organization for frontend JS, and to provide common features.

If your team has the maturity to organize their frontend JS into neat MVC/MVP apps without the use of a JS framework, great. But in my experience, few "full-stack" developers are comfortable enough and/or care enough about frontend JS to do this. Thus the use of frameworks.

If you need a very minimal framework, BackboneJS is both tiny and simple to use. Even Backbone can save simple apps like this a lot of grief.

The alternative to something like this is to stick to a full-stack framework like Ruby or Django and stay strictly in that environment/best practices. But even there you're bringing a lot of complexity into the picture, or sometimes you still end up needing some sort of organizing principle or framework for the frontend JS.


> A lot of it seems to be driven by a need for developers to keep their CVs shiny

This is immaturity, not a real need. The people who make the most money in tech aren't the ones with the most buzzwords on their resumes.


I wonder about that. Right now, I can pick up pretty much whatever tech is thrown at me. But any job demands that I have experience in this field or that field which is pretty frustrating tbh. "You don't have experience in this entire react stack? Bye!" oki... I'll look for backend dev? Oh right. Must be fullstack and must know all the JS frameworks.

Maybe devops/sysadmin/whatchamacallit? "Must know this particular NoSQL DB, and be able to administer Kubernetes clusters"

Fine I can kind of do that, but I have my doubts because I've never used said DB. And it goes on.

It's a deeper argument than what I just made, but my extreme other side point was just to highlight that the job market looks scary when you browse sites and realise you've only worked with pure js and jquery and no one wants that anymore. And then you see that they want people who've worked on real world apps using all this new tech.

There is eithe a real need or at least the illusion of a real need and I wouldn't discount that entirely. Somewhere in the middle, the answer probably lies.


People who post job ads where you can browse them usually don't understand the job they are hiring for, hence the checklists and keyword screens. So you need to find a way to get in touch with those on the inside who do know, and can make decisions. Hacker news ads are one way, maybe look at stack overflow, certainly look through your network for internal referrals, perhaps some meet ups.

Also I think one should not use the keyword stuffed resume when going through backchannels. Personally I discount them, and focus on resumes with a record of getting things done in a related field.


It's always been a problem. Premature optimization may be the root of all evil, yeah, yeah, but that quote is sort of a waste of breath as premature optimization is not that big of a problem. Over engineering is the great disease of the software profession.

I suppose premature optimization is one source for it, but more common is premature generalization and excessive levels of abstraction. Other major sources include backward compatibility needs, the creation of virtual layers to escape calcified bad design, and of course the need to show off and look smart.


I'd say overengineering and premature optimization are nearly synonyms.


They're both bad, of course, but beyond that I'd say they're nearly antonyms. Premature optimization trades structure for performance, overengineering trades performance for structure.

You could argue for equivalence under a broader definition of optimization and engineering, but in the context of software engineering the more specific definitions used above seem to be fairly well established.


Premature optimization trades structure for performance, overengineering trades performance for structure.

This makes them the converse of each other, but not antonyms. At any rate, I'm not sure I agree those terms are exclusive to this relation. There can be fast overengineering and slow PO.


I'd say premature optimization is one form of over-engineering, and not the most common form today. It was more common back when computers were a lot slower and people had to think about performance all the time, but now architectural over-engineering in all its forms is much more popular.


IME over engineering almost always results in far worse performance, like a data stack with 15 layers riddled with n+1 problems instead of some simple sql.


Yes. This is one one of the most prevalent problems in engineering I see when consulting for startups.


Are microservices more complex or less complex?

there's more operational complexity, because now you're running two things instead of one. But there's also less complexity in other areas, because parts of your code are firewalled off from each other, so you have a smaller problem space when making changes/fixing bugs.

I think that there's a tendency to view things that are harder to set up initially as more complex, when the long-term complexity might be lower. It mainly depends on what you think is important.

I think a lot of the difference in viewing complexity is due to difference in foundational knowledge. People doing Haskell see monads for DSLs as nice and easy abstraction, but people outside see it as a crutch, needed because of a lack of native effects in the language.

Some people see Javascript toolchains as needlessly complex, others see people using Javascript instead of <some compile to JS language with better abstractions> as needlessly complex.

Differentiating between what kind of complexity is brought is important. Because a team of people bad at operations shouldn't be rolling out a new service every week. But a team good at operations but bad at separation of concerns might gain a lot from being "forced" to chunk things out.


> Are microservices more complex or less complex?

I've long argued that microservices are a great way to reduce complexity; however, I had one project that I was involved in where microservices definitely added complexity. You get it right that,

> less complexity in other areas, because parts of your code are firewalled off from each other, so you have a smaller problem space when making changes/fixing bugs.

This is exactly right, and is exactly how microservices should make things less complex: by limiting the surface area that needs to be inspected when issues arise.

Where microservice I was thinking of fell short (IMO), is that it received JSON structures on the wire, and essentially, those Mappings and Lists made it all the way down to the lowest layers of the code. Deep in the heart of the service, Mappings and Lists are constructed, bubbled all the way back out towards the HTTP handlers (being mutated all the way) and then finally serialized and put on the wire as JSON.

Obviously (or, at least, I hope) this is not good. At any point, all I know is that I have a Mapping or a List; I have no real idea what the semantic business type of the thing is. (Unless it has a good variable name.) No validation (aside from it being JSON) is done, so if a structure is not well formed, that error isn't detected until such a time as it matters to the code (b/c something expects a String, and it isn't, for example), and everything grinds to a halt.

Couple a few of these together, and a badly formed JSON substructure can wind its way through multiple services. This can make debugging hard as you can't attach to a single process and follow execution from inception to failure, and the problem now spans potentially multiple machines.

So, this makes me wonder if this is where all the vitrol for microservices comes from (I've never really heard a good argument against it) or if it's just a strawman. The above, of course, is a failure not of microservices, but of mostly input validation and an unwillingness to strongly type your parameters. (Mappings of Lists of Mappings of etc. count as "stringly typed" in my book.)


In regards to the SPAs, what exactly is the alternative?

In my mind you have two possibilities:

1. The most ideal is to "pick the right solution for the problem." Meaning, you will analyze the problem and do the right thing, e.g. content mainly? server side rendering. web application? SPA.

2. Do what you know, consistently. In many cases, this means using an SPA basically all of the time, whether or not it's necessary. This also might mean server side rendering all of the time, adding javascript only when absolutely necessary.

In regards to SPAs, I feel there must be a solution. Ember tries to do this with fastboot, allowing you to essentially have the flexibility of an SPA with the SEO and other advantages of serve side rendering, but I'll ignore that for now.

Is there a paradigm/language that allows you to write the same templates for both the server side and SPA view? I guess this would mean the view is the same, and the model and controller would be your choice.

I think it's natural to just do what you know, which is why you're probably seeing what you are.


> Is there a paradigm/language that allows you to write the same templates for both the server side and SPA view?

That's the main motivation behind my web framework Sandro. It is just an experiment, but I do just that!

See https://bitbucket.org/aurelito/sandro and https://bitbucket.org/aurelito/sandro-lib

It uses rhino and domino to render server side using the DOM API. I am busy with work that pays my bills, but I would love if I were able to work full-time in it ;).


Server side rendering can be done with any JS framework, though often one must compromise performance by using a more heavyweight implementation like jsdom, or some custom implementation if the framework provides it.

Also I have done something similar using domino: https://simulacra.js.org/#server-side-rendering


> Is there a paradigm/language that allows you to write the same templates for both the server side and SPA view?

https://zeit.co/blog/next


Does isomorphic Javascript count? Example- Meteor js.


I believe it's a little bit of "column A" and a little bit of "column B".

On one hand it can feel maddening that a generation (or two) of young IT professionals have seemingly gone full-circle and tried all kinds of techniques only to end up leaning on tried-and-true technologies of the past (think: NoSQL vs ACID compliant relational DB's, Ruby/Python vs Elixir/Erlang, Flash/Flex - XML based design vs React/Javascript/HTML5/Canvas, Dynamic vs Strict typing, etc).

There has been a lot of re-inventing.

However, I think this had to happen. Many great ideas of the past were amazing ideas but they simply were before their time, not quite implemented well enough, we're too heavy/complex for the hardware at the time, and so-on.

Software has been moving too fast for the collective mind to keep up.

Maybe, in an ideal world, we would have methodically built up on the best of software from the 60's without wasting time and effort experimenting with new ideas. Honestly, that might have been awesome for productivity and the advancement of humanity as a whole. That's not how we seem to function as people, though. I can't help but think of "space travel" here (it sure didn't carry on exponentially from the moon landing ~50 years ago).

In my mind I believe this always happens with technology of any kind. It may be why we're discovering that ancient civilizations probably had much more interesting technology than we initially imagined. They simply has certain cycles where they "really hit a sweet spot" and other periods where it all became contrived.

On that note, if anyone has any suggestions for books about this subject please let me know. I know it's not an original thought and I'd bet there's been some interesting research.


The software field is still very young, and there's lots of things we haven't explored yet. A great example of this exploration is the ongoing evolution of javascript from simple scripts to SPAs and a universal compile target. It seems like a lot of effort is being wasted (because it is), but it's similar to startups in the economy. Most efforts fail, but enough succeed that we end up in a better position overall.

The field may hit a point where there's an obvious standard way to build things, (e.g. most houses in the US are wood-framed with drywall because it's cheap an durable enough for most use cases), but this won't happen for a long time. We've had thousands of years to figure out how to build houses and roads, but software really only started in the second half of the last century.


I'm all for learning and experimenting, but is it ethical to do it at the expense of paying customers (including employers) on business critical systems, without their explicit and informed consent?


Can you please cite some examples of this accidental complexity? I'm very curious to hear, if for nothing else than to avoid it if I agree that it's indeed accidental.

I do agree that because of the "GitHub resume" phenomenon, lots of devs are engaging in the type of engineering you describe.


OP mentions line of business apps. I may be presumptuous but that to me says (broadly) data entry forms and reporting.

Anything beyond HTML forms, a SQL database, and maybe a bit of Javascript and CSS is likely to be more complexity than you need for something like this.


Most companies I see, treat their problems as rocket engineering when in reality their startup is just a simple database frontend.


> Anything beyond HTML forms, a SQL database, and maybe a bit of Javascript and CSS is likely to be more complexity than you need for something like this.

And to query to SQL database from the JavaScript in the frontend web app? How do you plan to do this? You can't write an SQL query directly from the frontend web app.

So you need a backend framework, or at the very least a programming languages that can serve HTTP and has a driver for whatever DBMS you're using. Either using a language with a full-featured network standard library like Go, or else a simple framework like Flask or Sinatra would make things easier, or even Rails or Django, etc.

And is frontend validation enough? Or do you need backend validation as well?

And what about authentication? Are you leaving this wide open on the company intranet? Do you need an ACL? Most line of business apps of this kind do, often for regulatory reasons.

Logging? Also frequently required in line of business apps for auditing or regulatory reasons.

Perhaps you were assuming the existence of a backend programming language and these common features, but even simple apps like this can quickly involve much more complexity than originally anticipated, without at all going overboard.


that to me says (broadly) data entry forms and reporting

Yep that's pretty much it: forms over data, in various domains.


> tamed through more responsive (agile) dev practices

Sure, for a given project, you can make it more or less complex by taking different approaches. But there's some lower bound on essential complexity and when the product itself requires a lot of features that interact in complex ways, your essential complexity is going to be high. And once the complexity gets too high, every new feature you add starts making future features even harder & slower to add. (A few caveats: 1. You can of course argue that it doesn't really "need" all those features, and everyone would be better off by sacrificing a little on the user experience to make it a lot less complex, less buggy, cheaper to build/maintain, etc. 2. By the time you run into these issues, the program is large enough that some accidental complexity has snuck in, and it can be hard to estimate how much of your problem is from that vs how much is from the essential complexity.)

Anyway, If a project never gets to that size where the essential complexity becomes unmanageable, then great. I'd agree it's probably a mistake to introduce extra complexity with microservices or anything else, and certainly some people make this mistake (or miscalculate whether their project will stay small and simple).

But if it does get to that point, some of these solutions you mention like microservices can be an independent, constant complexity cost. Ideally each microservice itself is a small app with manageable complexity. On the other hand, a naive, monolithic app will continue to have its essential complexity grow super-linearly with variables like time, lines of code, number of developers, etc. The bet is that by introducing the new thing, you can bring the overall complexity of the entire system down.

So my short answer would be "no" - in many large projects, essential complexity is growing faster than accidental complexity. This has led to a proliferation of tools to help bring it under control, and yes, if you look at these tools in isolation they are pretty complex.

(And there are hundreds of billions of dollars worth of companies using these tools, if it is all just a waste of time then there's a massive business opportunity waiting for someone to undercut them)


Yes.

Sort of.

One of the reasons for this is actually the success of both OOP and COTS/FOTS to provide us with workable reuse (just as Brooks predicted, by the way). Just about every GUI program reuses huge libraries of graphics and UI code, usually provided by the OS vendor. Every Rails app reuses significant functionality. We scoff at the huge dependency lists of programs, yet in some sense this is a sign of success: we no longer have to rewrite all of this functionality from scratch like we used to.

However, we now have to glue all of this stuff together. With glue code. Lots and lots of glue code. Which is by definition accidental complexity. And which appears to be growing non-linearly.

So as is usually the case, our success in the last iteration (OOP/COTS) gets is to a new stage, and at this stage we face new problems that are a result of our previous success. In this case, I'd venture that the problem is that we don't really have a good approach to gluing these pieces together. Yes, we can do it, but we don't know how to do it well.

I think John Hughes in Why Functional Programming Matters[1][2] hit the nail on the head when he said that we need new kinds of glue, and where FP has been successful I think it is largely because it provides one new type of glue: function composition. (He says two, but whether pervasive lazy evaluation is actually a good kind of glue is at best controversial).

Architectural Mismatch: Why Reuse is [still] so hard[3](1995)[4](2009) shows the general problem while Programs = Data + Algorithms + Architecture: Consequences for Interactive Software Engineering shows that the problem is particularly pernicious in GUI programs, which are notoriously tricky.

For me, the solution is to make it possible to (a) use different types of glue within a program, (b) define your own kinds of 1st class glue and (c) adapt existing glue to your needs. I've built a language to enable this[6] and have been applying the ideas both in research and practice. So far it appears to be working.

[1] http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.html

[2] https://www.infoq.com/interviews/john-hughes-fp/

[3] http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/able/www/paper_...

[4] http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1074...

[5] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Programs-Data-Algorith...

[6] http://objective.st


Context intro to my answer: I'm come from a service economy. Much of what I've seen is from companies that go out there, get clients from various types of businesses - construction to finance - and create custom solutions for them that are then maintained by the same service companies. I've also seen a few product companies and I have worked with one for a year.

---

After reflecting on this question, I feel like a good way to think about it might be this:

Companies are hitting extreme points right now. On the one hand you have companies that have stuck to their way of working for years. It worked, and in the process of getting customers and making the money come in, they never really thought to upgrade the company processes. After all, back in the day, tech moved at a much slower pace and that's what they are used to. There's been little to no incremental improvement in the technology or even the practices that have been used throughout the companies life. These types of companies still use FoxPro for ERP's, much much older Java enterprise tech stacks (and practices) for their server side stuff. I don't say that that's bad mind you. The ERP company has been around for over 25 years.

On the other hand you have the fresh companies started by people who really don't want to enter the juggernauts of the market. The establishment. Guided by the excitment that reaches us from Facebook listicles, and Techcrunch, they want to ride their own paths and build a fresh future. They want to go in and show businesses that the establishment is giving them "boring" and that they can do it better. I've met with lots of these people as well. Generally they'll start explaining their business by start from their tech stack. "We are a SME ERP business using react and a full JS based stack". That is not an exaggeration. That is near verbatim.

In between these companies you have the graduates who need to pick a side to go work in. And those that are entering the establishment, want to make their mark. Their impact. They walk into a company that is using SVN for their source code management, and they groan. They see Java being used and they say "why not NodeJS?". And what I've seen that happens, is that they run into the people of the establishment who have no interest in upgrading. Instead of having mentors who work with them towards incremental improvements where each improvement is justified by developer productivity and improvements to the customer they hear "what we have is good enough. Forget it". Or the more common "too much work. Don't bother". As a personal note, the latter really bugs me. Of course it's too much work. You've set it up to be too much work. But, what happens then is that some people will become the establishment, while the others will bide their time waiting for a greenfield project to come and for them to be given a PM role (mind you I see PM roles being handed out to people with almost no technical knowledge, little ability to evaluate tech or specs, after being in a company for 1.5 years). And when they get it, "LET'S DO NODE JS!!!!".

Oh and what of those graduates who left college to join the "entrepreneurs"?. They too have gone through university being taught web app development using "ASP MVC" and "Microsoft SQL" and they long to be let out into the world to play with the tech that they hear their peers are working with around the world. Admittedly, the Open source world of react and angular and what not is super exciting in terms of pace of announcements these days. And then they join their peers and everyone gets to feel excited that they are working with new things because they believe new must mean better.

---

Ultimately the answer is yes. Accidental complexity is growing faster than essential complexity. Business practices change much slower than tech in today's world. I also feel like understanding the reasons behind it is worth pondering on.

For me, I feel that a lack of mentorship has a lot to do with things. There are far too few Uncle Bob's - veterans of the software industry who've kept pace with the change and understand things with a deep historical context - who lead architectural decisions and project management at a company. It doesn't even have to be Uncle Bob level veterans. But my observation of companies from where I am shows me very clearly that after 3-5 years of being in the industry, the deeper level constant learning vanishes. Which means that the older employees and the relatively new employees have stopped growing and the mentorship they provide is based on a tiny amount of work that they've done at some point in their life.

So to recap, we have people who've come out into the industry, fascinated by the flashy stuff (which is fine! That kind of youthful enthusiasm is also needed in the eco system). These people quickly make their way up to the management level within a couple of years, and then get to push the flashy stuff, and it doesn't go beyond there. Understanding the balance between tech decisions and what's required to solve the problem efficiently for the customer doesn't happen. And then these people guide the next generation which multiplies the effect.

From my POV and from where I live, this is the service industry today. Accidental complexity is a growing beast heading towards an exponential curve.


I get your drift, mostly, but I'd say accidental complexity comes from forces more powerful than technical geekery: money.

I work at a fairly well known startup that has raised many tens of millions from VCs. Having raised this money we are now fully expected to hit quarterly numbers. In this pursuit we often end up adding random shit to the product or doing extra non-core shit to get a deal done. Product roadmap be damned.

Unless you have a principled and powerful (dictatorial, even) leader who can say "no, we should stick to our vision rather than introduce new tech debt" and enforce it through product and engineering, the accidental complexity will continue to pile on as selfish quota-carriers eat up all resources available to them.




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