> It's a monitor Apple effectively blessed as their monitor replacement. They sold it. So... yeah. Yeah, I do blame them for their lack of due diligence.
Apple don't make the LG Ultrafine Display. Apple offer many other third-party products through their stores, but it's the manufacturer's responsibility to support those.
> how am I supposed to rely on Apple to meet my needs if they are perfectly happy dropping products a business depends on?
Apple still make amazing 5120×2880, 10-bits-per-channel screens: The Retina iMacs. If your business depends on such screens, you'd get the iMacs, not the MacBooks, or get a MacBook with any of the many third-party 4K displays.
> none of the half-dozen developers/tech-oriented people I know who have switched to the latest laptops prefer them over the older ones.
Why?
> before listing complaints. The complaints range from the touch bar
Like? What complaints specifically?
> to performance being far worse than older models.
They have some of the fastest SSDs on the market [1], their batteries can go up to 18 hours [2], they have the fastest GPUs ever in a MacBook, and how many laptops do you know that have high-DPI Wide Color screens?
----
> Are you not aware of the touch bar?
I use it daily, and it's better than the archaic row of limited and cryptic FN keys that it replaces, especially once you've tweaked it a little. [3]
FN Keys:
• 12
• Have to remember what each number does in each app
• Different numbers remain "fixed" for different functions in different operating systems (e.g. F1 for Help, Alt+F4 for Quit.)
• Not customizable
• Cannot give at-a-glance status without taking up main screen space
----
Touch Bar:
• More than 12
• Not limited by physical space
• Context-sensitive and adaptive
• More types of controls than just buttons (e.g. sliders, color pickers)
• Customizable
• Can display at-a-glance status such as time, battery etc.
----
As for other companies that offer high-end laptops, take a look at people's experience with Razer for example. [4]
All of the over-a-dozen developers/tech-oriented people that -I- know prefer the 2016 MBPs to everything else. They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month. [5]
But they did make monitors. And Routers. And other things that people bought into. Because Apple "just works." But now it doesn't.
> Apple still make amazing 5120×2880, 10-bits-per-channel screens: The Retina iMacs. If your business depends on such screens, you'd get the iMacs
iMacs are not replacements for MBP + Apple's monitors.
> Why?
Because the previous models have features and capabilities that the new ones do not that they prefer.
> Like? What complaints specifically?
For example, the touch bar button activating not when someone wants the touch buttons to activate. Specifically the latest case, I had a friend joke about how he's changed the background color of his terminal so many time since moving to the latest MBP. That's just one example.
> They have some of the...
shrug I know what I see. Sorry, but running scripts side by side with an older MBP compared to the latest MBP, the older one won hands down.
> I use it daily
And you weren't clued into the GPs remark about the touch screen? You honestly couldn't figure it out?
> They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month.
And just because others like something, that means it's good for me?
> For example, the touch bar button activating not when someone wants the touch buttons to activate. Specifically the latest case, I had a friend joke about how he's changed the background color of his terminal so many time since moving to the latest MBP. That's just one example.
I would just like to say that that's BS.
You have to be very deliberate to change the Terminal window color: It takes a tap on a specific button to bring up the color picker, then you have to lift your finger to the slider and move it, or keep your finger held on the Touch Bar for a second then slide it around without lifting it to choose from a palette.
It's not something that can be done accidentally, as it takes multiple specific actions in a row.
If you still keep fumbling it "so many times" then you can always customize the Touch Bar and just remove the offending buttons.
Another one that defends the laptops when the original article is about a Mac Pro replacement :)
> Can display at-a-glance status such as time, battery etc.
You look at the keyboard when you type? Not my demographic then, i type too much for that. It's probably fine for you.
> All of the over-a-dozen developers/tech-oriented people that -I- know prefer the 2016 MBPs to everything else. They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month.
You don't know any developers working on compiled software. And the mbpros outsell everything not because they don't annoy people, but because there's almost no alternative. Perhaps the Dell Developer Edition laptops, but Apple would have to piss me off more than they have so far for me to try a Dell instead.
And again, the article - and my OP - are from people who need a powerful desktop for work.
> My experience is that their laptops are still more than fine enough for power users and developers.
And My experience is that their laptops are not more than fine enough for power users and developers.
Now, why can't we be both right? That your needs are clearly met by the laptop, but others aren't? Are you somehow impacted if people who used to like the products put out are now disappointed by them? That people who were looking to buy new machines spent their money else where and had better results?
Do you feel that if these people are right, that somehow this negates your choice and needs? Why are you working so hard to dictate that their needs are unimportant and that your needs are superior?
None of the complainers seem to be able to say exactly WHY the new MacBooks are bad.
• They complain about performance when they're the fastest MacBooks ever, surpassing many competitors and with a very good battery charge-to-perforamce ratio, not to mention the best display ever on a MacBook.
• They complain about needing "5 dongles" when you need at most 1 USB/USB-C adapter + sometimes a multiport hub or dock, for almost any use case.
• That one guy keeps calling it an emoji keyboard, when there aren't any emoji on the keyboard.
• They complain of not being able to touch-type when the physical keyboard is still there.
• They complain about noise when these are the quietest MacBook Pros ever, and without willing to show what they're comparing it with.
• They say Apple is losing favor with customers when the new MacBooks have outsold everything and Apple has continued to top rankings and stock prices.
So yeah. I have the thing in my hands, and I use it daily, and there really hasn't been a better MacBook before. I DO concede that they may be priced a bit too steeply.
Meanwhile I only see complaints from people who have clearly never even used the things! It's pretty obvious with their "emoji keyboard" and "dongles everywhere" hyperbole, like going back to the old "Micro$oft" and "Windoze" days.
So of course I have to wonder and ask: By WHAT metric are they bad? I can only chalk it down to a concentrated anti-PR effort, or some desperate brand envy (e.g. adamantly putting the blame for LG's monitors — that have now been fixed, by the way — on Apple.)
> I do. I expect your next response will impose qualifiers on "developers" and "compiled software."
> I used to say that their laptops are fine
> My experience is that their laptops are still more than fine enough for power users and developers.
Well, [part 1] I don't use xcode, i touch type [part 2] and a lot of the stuff i work on involves looong builds and/or going through a few VMs. I also HATE fan noise and I work from home in a quiet room. Part 1 disqualifies the emoji keyboard, part 2 disqualifies anything with laptop-like internals, namely the laptops and the iMacs. I hope that's enough qualifiers :)
Which apps do you use that make such heavy use of the function keys that makes any such difference significant? I'm not sure I'm aware of anything I use on a daily basis that uses the function keys. I use them so rarely, I usually forget that I need to press the fn key first to actually use them, and then I always have to hunt for the fn key; its placement by the home/end keys on my keyboard isn't exactly conducive to frequent use.
Debugging keyboard shortcuts is the first thing that comes to mind. Esc is also used regularly.
I always bind my keyboard to use the fn# keys without pressing "fn", usually in the BIOS, so I only press "fn" for the other special features (brightness, media, etc., that laptop makers map arbitrarily to the fn# keys)
> i touch type ... Part 1 disqualifies the emoji keyboard
Why do you keep saying this? The Touch Bar replaces the FN keys, not the keyboard.
There are no emojis on the Touch Bar unless you specifically bring them up. You can modify the Touch Bar to only present you with the controls you need. [1]
> I also HATE fan noise and I work from home in a quiet room. ... disqualifies anything with laptop-like internals
The 2016 MBPs are some of the quietest laptops around [2]. Which computer do you use? Is it a desktop without any fans?
> Why do you keep saying this? The Touch Bar replaces the FN keys, not the keyboard.
I use those keys. Without looking down.
> Which computer do you use? Is it a desktop without any fans?
Let's say I build my systems according to the advice on silentpcreview.com. Apple laptops on full load may be quiet for a laptop, but they have nothing on a custom built desktop.
Unless you slide your finger across the keyboard to "count" which FN key is under your finger, you can still use FN keys on the Touch Bar, without looking down; they are in the same positions.
The Touch Bar is always within your peripheral vision when you're looking at the screen anyway [1] [2].
> Let's say I build my systems according to the advice on silentpcreview.com. Apple laptops on full load may be quiet for a laptop, but they have nothing on a custom built desktop.
Well if you're willing to record/measure the noise of your current machine under your usual workload, I could try running the same tasks on my 15" 2016 MBP to compare.
Mind you though, a desktop chassis is usually far away from you, unlike any laptop right under your hands, unless you use it with an external keyboard. So objective noise vs. perceived noise will be different, and have to be compensated for.
> Unless you slide your finger across the keyboard to "count" which FN key is under your finger, you can still use FN keys on the Touch Bar, without looking down; they are in the same positions.
If that was true, we could just use an iPad instead of a physical keyboard. But there's a reason people don't like typing on chiclet keyboards or glass, and some developers even go to great lengths of geekery to build custom mechanical keyboards with different types of switches.
Typing on glass just doesn't give you the same feedback you get from physical keys.
I'm not saying the Touch Bar is not an improvement for many people. Many people (even some developers or professionals) rarely use the F-keys. But there is a certain demographic which deeply cares about the keyboard, and there's no denying parts of this demographic overlapped with that of MBP users.
What do developers use the f keys for? I never use them while editing code. I guess maybe shortcuts in some IDEs? But you don't press those anywhere near as often as regular keys, and they're still there on the touch bar when you need them.
Apple don't make the LG Ultrafine Display. Apple offer many other third-party products through their stores, but it's the manufacturer's responsibility to support those.
> how am I supposed to rely on Apple to meet my needs if they are perfectly happy dropping products a business depends on?
Apple still make amazing 5120×2880, 10-bits-per-channel screens: The Retina iMacs. If your business depends on such screens, you'd get the iMacs, not the MacBooks, or get a MacBook with any of the many third-party 4K displays.
> none of the half-dozen developers/tech-oriented people I know who have switched to the latest laptops prefer them over the older ones.
Why?
> before listing complaints. The complaints range from the touch bar
Like? What complaints specifically?
> to performance being far worse than older models.
They have some of the fastest SSDs on the market [1], their batteries can go up to 18 hours [2], they have the fastest GPUs ever in a MacBook, and how many laptops do you know that have high-DPI Wide Color screens?
----
> Are you not aware of the touch bar?
I use it daily, and it's better than the archaic row of limited and cryptic FN keys that it replaces, especially once you've tweaked it a little. [3]
FN Keys:
• 12
• Have to remember what each number does in each app
• Different numbers remain "fixed" for different functions in different operating systems (e.g. F1 for Help, Alt+F4 for Quit.)
• Not customizable
• Cannot give at-a-glance status without taking up main screen space
----
Touch Bar:
• More than 12
• Not limited by physical space
• Context-sensitive and adaptive
• More types of controls than just buttons (e.g. sliders, color pickers)
• Customizable
• Can display at-a-glance status such as time, battery etc.
----
As for other companies that offer high-end laptops, take a look at people's experience with Razer for example. [4]
All of the over-a-dozen developers/tech-oriented people that -I- know prefer the 2016 MBPs to everything else. They've also outsold all other competitors in just a single month. [5]
[1] https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/01/2016-macbook-pro-ssd/
[2] https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/13/macbook-pro-battery-issu...
[3] https://alexw.me/2017/01/what-if-you-could-customize-your-ne...
[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785247
[5] http://fortune.com/2016/11/09/apple-macbook-pro-sales/