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I have deployed several clusters with kubernetes and with Swarm. I think my wording was hyphenated at the wrong place. Swarm has a new yml file format - the compose v3 which is pretty damn awesome. Kubernetes has had yml files for a while, but the gap in simplicity/usability is massive.

Which is what my point was with minkube and kubeadm and kompose - for swarm, you use a single tool for either a single node cluster.. or a multi node cluster. Even more, kompose was invented to read from the same Docker Swarm compose file format - because it is so intuitive.

I'll go one step further - kubeadm does not actually have high availability support, so you actually have to use kargo or kops to reasonably deploy in production.

Kubernetes introduces a lot of upfront complexity with little benefit sometimes. For example, kargo is failing with Flannel, but works with Calico (and so on and so forth). Bare metal deployments with kubernetes are a big pain because the load balancer setups have not been built for it - most kubernetes configs depend on cloud based load balancers (like ELB). In fact, the code for bare metal load balancer integration has not been fully written for kubernetes.

Now, my point is not that kubernetes sucks - I think its a great piece of tech. But its around why do people think Docker Swarm will die.. or that it sucks? Because, relatively speaking, while kubernetes NEEDS all kinds of complicated orchestration tools (and consultants!) to set it up .. Swarm on the other hand is damn easy to setup by a developer building his first stack.

Is Docker Swarm the heroku to Kubernetes AWS ?

The issue that I have with the newly imagined Docker Swarm is that it continues Docker's trend of trying to be a jack of all trades.

I have no specific examples for Docker Swarm, but using this approach in other areas has led to some pretty major deficiencies in Docker's design that they have been slow to fix, and I'm not keen on seeing that happen again.

For a concrete example, see https://github.com/docker/docker/issues/19474 - in a minor release, they completely changed how DNS worked and broke previously working systems (i.e. https://github.com/weaveworks/weave/issues/2157), all in the name of service discovery

I see.

incidentally the embedded DNS feature is fairly extensively leveraged by kubernetes - it takes of the situations where you dont want to muck around with underlying /etc/hosts (on the actual metal) and do your changes only on the containers.

But I'm hearing what you are saying more and more - Docker Inc is having a huge PR problem. Docker Swarm may actually be good, but people are generally disliking the organization itself.

You dont see these kind of answers with Fleet, Mesos..even Openstack. Docker Swarm is a genuinely sweet piece of tech.. so this is rather unfortunate.

They have a PR problem because they break interfaces in minor releases and have actively pushed back on criticism for doing so as "they need to be agile" and "can't be boxed in by competitors".

My biggest issue with swarm is when you have clusters that also needs scheduling of non-Docker workloads.

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