Hacker News new | comments | show | ask | jobs | submit login
Ask HN: Do you still use UML?
166 points by dmitripopov 140 days ago | hide | past | web | 185 comments | favorite
A client asks to add UML diagram support to my Helpinator, but I am not sure that it's worth my time.



In its entirety? No. Never go "full UML", it will annihilate productivity and produce abominable software. It also is taught wrong, it tends to be taught as a design tool, but there's such a tremendous impedence mismatch between the diagramming tools and the way the code actually gets written that it ends up doing more harm than good. (not to mention that the people who usually end up creating the UML might be many organizational layers away from the developers).

But there's some goodness in there. The principal of using diagramming as a descriptive documentation and communication solution is highly worthwhile, but again it should be limited to pieces of the system that need such things. And in addition, the level of detail should be just as much as is sufficient to communicate what's necessary -- don't "prematurely optimize" by trying to document every bit of the system in excruciating detail.

There's also often better, simpler ways to document many aspects of a system, a few boxes and arrows work well for many things. Lightweight versions of the Archimate style work well for describing complete systems. Protocols are well described by a lightweight treatment of sequence diagrams, etc.

They'll often go out of date as quickly as you make them, so keeping them up to date and well versioned turns into a challenge.

Because it's free and provides cross platform compatibility (and the diagrams are supposed to be communication devices), we tend to use yEd for most things.


Indeed, I only use UML for documentation of existing code. Having a standard allows for consistent reverse-engineering, and a class diagram is still the best way to visualize an OOP class hierarchy.

Keeping them up to date with the code is an issue, as with all documentation. I actually wrote my own Java class diagrammer [1] for that purpose so I can just re-run a project file to create updated diagrams of the current code base, with little or no editing required.

[1] http://kynosarges.org/Diagrammer.html


I still find sequence diagrams to be a useful conversation tool.


The 3 actually useful diagrams that I have seen in the last 10 years are:

- Sequence

- Entity relationship

- State chart

All 3 are useful for communicating protocols, schemas and state charts.

Sequence diagrams are probably the most ubiquitous, and very useful in explaining protocols. Even RFC-s have them.

Relationship diagrams are often (ab)used to visualize relationships between tables in SQL databases. While it's not very useful for designing, I have actually used them for understanding and simplifying a complicated database schema. I actually believe every API documentation should start with an abstract entity relationship diagram. Abstract in the sense that it should not necessarily represent physical tables, but give an overview of the underlying structure to the first time user. Doesn't even have to complete or correct.

State charts are occasionally useful for obvious reasons. Try explaining TCP without one.

I think it's worth noting that the above 3 existed before UML and UML merely tried to formalize them, so while I don't think anyone uses "UML" anymore, being able to comprehend the above 3 charts is as basic of a skill as being able to read pseudo-code, and saying they are not is use would also be false.

Edit: formatting


The reward of the clarity of sequence diagrams is worth the pain and boredom of learning all the others at university.

Sequence diagrams nicely represent separate entities involved in a system, the order of communication between them, and the conceptual content of messages between them. Even briefly reading a sequence diagram helps you understand how different components relate to each other.

Often, and usually with API endpoints with some complexity behind the scenes, I'll go out of my way to draw an ASCII sequence diagram with Monodraw[0] and leave it in the comments or a readme.

[0] https://monodraw.helftone.com


Actually, ERD are not specifically supported by base UML, but an approximation can be done using class diagraams and, with a little specialization (profile) the rest of ERD can be represented.


I use boxes-and-arrows sketches a lot. The UML which was so popular around 2000 was this detailed quasi-standard graphical language. It was very centred around being correct, and diagrams being of a specific type of a number of permissible types, and so on. And that whole part I never found to be too helpful.

It is useful to draw ideas as graphics for people who's brains are wired visually. And it can makes nice figures for books and articles explaining structures and concepts. But in neither case does the value predominantly depend on the depictions begin adherent to a standard, as much as other qualities, like focusing on the right part of a larger system, or leaving out unimportant detail, etc.

So nonstandard diagrams offer the author or user more creative flexibility, which is often very important.

I do see value in loosely following UML notation, for the obvious reason that one can immediately see if someone tries to show classes, states, requests, systems parts, and so on. That was probably the original goal behind UML all along, even if people lost sight of it during the fad phase.


I use to argue with a friend about this, I was so fed up with all the UML mystique, I wanted to release CarréFleches 1.0 (french for boxes and arrows, with the appropriate lack of grammar to mock the fluff behind UML).

Seems like everybody use the same "subset" that is graphs of things related to each others ... what a mystery.


OT: just realised where the word fletcher (an arrow-maker) comes from. In French does fleches refer always to the whole arrow? Just it sounds a bit like "flight" which is the layman's English term for the feathers.


etymonline: fletcher (n.) "arrow-maker," early 14c. (as a surname attested from 1203), from Old French flechier "maker of arrows," from fleche "arrow," which is probably from Frankish, from Proto-Germanic •fleug-ika- (compare Old Low German fliuca, Middle Dutch vliecke), from PIE •pleuk- "to fly," extended form of root •pleu- "to flow" (see pluvial).

I think it pretty much stands for the whole arrow, but comes from the word for “flying” back in old Germanic languages – but via the arrow being a flying projectile, not from the feathers per se.


Good one. I'd never question this one, because somehow it felt anglosaxon enough, but it seems so obvious. The anglo-french linguistic feedback loop is quite fun.


Yeah, I use boxes and arrows a lot, but even more than that I use indented lists, just fire up a text editor and break everything down. They're harder to show structure with for big complicated parts of the application but when you're breaking down a single feature into just a few classes I find it a lot quicker to work with.


I concur that box-and-arrow diagrams are useful, and if I am doing them, I might as well use UML as my base language. But even then those diagrams are not nearly as valuable as the diagrams used in any other field of engineering.

My explanation is this: computer programs are documents. The best way to capture the essence of a document is to summarise it's most important bits in language I can easily understand.

And for me, that requires English not UML.


UML was, in some sense, an expression of a certain kind of politics:

-------------

"And there is an explicitly political idea that drove OOP to its peak in the 1990s: the idea of outsourcing. The idea of outsourcing software development rested on some assumptions about how software development should work, in particular the idea of the “genius” architect, backed by an army of morons who act as secretaries, taking dictation. OOP was the software equivalent of a trend that became common in manufacturing during the 1980s: design should stay in the USA while actual production should be sent to a 3rd World country. Working with UML diagrams, writing code could be reduced to mere grunt work, whereas the design of software could be handled by visionaries, possessed with epic imaginations, who could specify an OO hierarchy which could then be sent to India for a vast team to actually type out. And the teams in India (or Vietnam, or Romania, etc) were never trusted, they were assumed to be idiots, and so, for a moment, there was a strong market demand for a language that treated programmers like idiots, and so the stage was set for the emergence of Java. "

http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/object-oriented-progr...


I was there until Java... the truth is that C++ in 1997 was a nightmare wrapped in a barbed wire horror story IF YOU WERE WRITING ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE java was a god send.

Ok, it's wordy, ok it doesn't have a REPL but if you were living the life 20 years ago it was a godsend.

The downside was that it took about £300 a day out of the market for contractors in 3 years.


I think everything you say is true except the jab at java, which is also true, but not all the truth...

Besides, during the 90s the idea seemed to be that that the next step after the outsourcing was actually no programmers at all. UML and 4gl systems would handle all the complexities and laymen domain experts could just define all bread and butter administrative systems they like - no expensive and socially awkward nerds in the basement necessary...


> during the 90s the idea seemed to be that that the next step after the outsourcing was actually no programmers at all

Lest someone think this is an exaggeration, no, this was literally the conversation at the highest levels of some companies. A relative told me to reconsider going after a comp sci degree in 1995 because within ten years the computers would be programming themselves. There were presentations at their workplace about it.

My first "real" job was programming customizations hacked on top of a 4gl tool - injecting JavaScript into pages through an improperly sanitized <label> widget! After the whole application was rewritten in the 4gl tool, it never lived up to its promise.


Fred Brooks where spot on in his thoughs regarding essential (as in inherent) complexity.

I think that BPEL thankfully died just a couple of years ago, but not thanks to some globally aquired insight but rather because a new batch of developers isn't quite there yet so they are busy learning and reinventing basic stuff, but now at 'internet scale'


UML can be a great communication tool in specific situations but when it becomes a religion your organization will suffer. I'm older than most here, drank the cool-aid that predicted code generation and round tripping but spit it back up before the poison had a chance to set in.

A bonus comment for the youngin's ... When you hear that some new system will allow "the common man" to write his own software without developers, smile and agree with them because they'll come back when it doesn't go as planned and you can charge a higher rate for the resulting expedited project.

EDIT:

I should also admit that I liked (like?) the idea of writing code using diagrams. In the '80s I wrote a program I called "Flo-Pro" in Turbo C that never quite became self-compiling. It wasn't at all OOPsish or FP. In the '90s I wrote several tools in Prograph [0] (now known as Marten) but was stymied by the fact that I was the only one in the company using the tool. In the early aughts, I tried URL tools that promised to write my code from the diagrams - it worked for very simple code but I never saw round-tripping work.

I love drawings in general - my coworkers joke that it's not a meeting unless I have a dry-erase marker in my hand. But those diagrams are invariably system-level, architectural drawings. As others have noted, I also appreciate ERD as a way to visualize relationships in RDBMS. So as much as I like the idea, development stays in the world of text - I'm not holding my breath for some magic bullet.

[0] http://www.andescotia.com/


Code generation with 2D diagrams is a productivity killer. There is a reason why digital circuit design has shifted to use of HDLs. You can be far more productive describing behavior in text than shepherding boxes around on a schematic and slavishly working to make the interconnect look nice. With text, it's easy to make modifications. You have the power of VCS tools available to track changes. It's easier to partition work across multiple people. You aren't tied to proprietary storage formats and tooling that could disappear when their creators go under.


> There is a reason why digital circuit design has shifted to use of HDLs.

Yours is so far the most insightful comment I've read on the page. Have an up vote.


Which is also a reason your are seeing more textual front-ends for UML.


> some new system will allow "the common man" to write his own software without developers

"The common man" often seems to think that mastering the syntax of a programming language is the hard bit, and that replacing textual syntax with some pretty graphics will magically make software easy to build.

Of course, the real challenge is accurately specifying what you're trying to accomplish, and exactly how you want it to happen. Everything else is just window-dressing.


And of course, the fact that there is always a grammar. That grammar might be images being linked together, it might be text, but it ultimately comes down to learning a grammar, breaking down your problem to fit it, and then building a solution using that grammar. Changing the grammar only really makes the first part approachable, and that's not actually the hard part.


I drifted on the 2nd uml wave (~profiles, rup, bpmn, mof, you name it). The day I went back to compilation/graph/ml/lisp I cried of hapiness.

There's a lot to say about uml and the "model" approach history. One bit of trivia, I did my internship at an old IBM acquisition, that shop had made its own process/modeling philosophy with a dedicated environment in the 80s (the reason it got successul with some big clients thus IBM interest). Coming there I thought it would be yet another rational-like thing. But that old console program had live modeling relationship between layers, the model thang was implicit, a beautiful thing. Now replaced by whatever Eclipse based rational children IBM forced onto the teams now.


Per your bonus comment:

Imagine an app where you can fix your own car without any mechanical knowledge. The user simply explains the problem to the app and the app figures it out. In every scenario the app ends up directing you to an actual mechanic.

That's my best analogy to "programming without programming".


yup, because the tools in the drawers of your roll-away have nuances you have to learn - a syntax if you will. And each of the potentially bad parts you need to replace has interactions with other parts of the car (the system).

I just changed the alternator on my truck - you have to wait for the exhaust to cool before you do it, disconnect the battery and then punch the security code into the radio when you're done.

A business person trying to write their own software (assuming they're not also a developer and that they believe some magic tool will let them complete it) will end up with painfully burned hands in the process and at the end they won't be blissfully listening to music again.


The youngins say AI will solve this. They're wrong.


A human-like AI will sure solve this - because the only way for "common man" to make software without developers is to have something to do the work of dealing with complexity - figuring out the precise details, handling edge cases in a way consistent with the original intent, etc.

But why wait for a powerful AI, if you can hire / enslave developers today?


> handling edge cases in a way consistent with the original intent, etc.

That's where we spend the majority of our time and always where things go horribly wrong in SciFi movies.


AGI will solve it. I think we've got a while yet before that becomes an issue for us devs though.


AGI sounds like fuzzy logic. We know how far that got. It will make some companies money though, it's snake oil. Computers even thousands of years from now will never be able to do what a programmer with 1 year of experience can do today, it's the advantage of being human.


At the end of 2014, nobody disagreed with this comic: http://xkcd.com/1425/

Halfway through 2016, "a programmer with 1 year of experience" using nothing by Python, numpy and a couple of spare weeks could roll their own convolutional neural net to identify images with high-90-percent accuracy.

I dunno about you but that sounds like a significant advance to me.


Would you play Russian Roulette with those odds? I wonder if an artificial intelligence would.


Computers have less than a century of history so far and you're already able to predict the next thousands of years? Sounds like a religious belief to me.


> Computers have less than a century of history so far

That's actually the point.


I'm sorry, I don't see it. Can you explain how that short history somehow makes your sweeping claims about the future more credible?


Ai is another thing that's always just around the corner, probably the same corner as graphical programming.


HackerNews may not be the best place to sample for UML usage. It consists mainly of two communities that have a bias against formal engineering methodologies in the development of software.

I won't comment on the pros and cons of UML. Instead I'll invite you to ask yourself a couple of questions.

1. What other clients do you support who have similar characteristics as this client (and may therefore also benefit from UML support)? If the number is significant in terms of impact to your bottom line versus the time you'd have to spend implementing it, then you should consider it worth your time, and view it as an opportunity to up-sell (if you can) or keep existing customers.

2. Do you intend to attempt to move into supporting large enterprise, and especially government contractors? If so, you might consider UML support just because it is ubiquitous there.


what are the two communities are you referring to? one of them might be frontend developers(ui,js,html,css,etc)? what is the other one?

I'm a low-level guy and learning some web coding these days, so I can tell the difference views on software between HN and other places.


Mainly the group that thinks of everything in terms of the mathematics of CS, and the group who thinks in terms primarily of "just ship, ship, ship code 'pragmatists'."

It isn't really divided by front end versus back end or the like.


My guess is the FP (especially Lisp) crowd.


The FP crowd is so vocal. Reformed math geeks who are trying to evangelize the world of programming to do things one way; their way.


> Reformed math geeks

I presume you mean the Haskell crowd? The Lisp crowd is more about expression rather than "correctness" and rigidity. FP doesn't really have a formal definition.

> trying to evangelize the world of programming to do things one way; their way.

I think the world of computing is shifting towards a lot of async work, and if you've ever written large threaded apps, having too much state becomes the greatest of burdens. Clojure, for example, minimizes state and uses Software Transactional Memory to manage mutability.


What's old is new again, it seems.


If only the LISP syntax looked like a programming language and made logical sense.


Care to explain which are those communities you are referring to?


I do, quite a lot actually.

Originally it was mostly because it was the default setting in my Enterprise Architect tool, but it's proven more useful than Archimate (and other notations) because people without architect knowledge understands it much better.

On the business side it's mainly the system integrations, dependencies and information flows that are of value and you could honestly do them in Word if you wanted. Because it's very easy to build upon it, it's also easy to turn the business specs into something I can hand to an actual developer or use as a common language when talking features and requirements.

I wouldn't use UML if I was doing the systems engineering from requirement specs handed to me, and it is very rare that we use more than 10-25% of its full functionality, but it has enourmous value when you are trying to get future system owners to understand their own business processes and what they actually need from their IT.


Would you use UML to show BPs to a competely new user of a system?


I don't deal with a lot of end users, I mainly advice stakeholders and try to make them as equipped as possible for making the right overall decisions. That being said I wouldn't because our project maneuvers use bizagi and are comfortable with that notation.

Given the choice I'd probably not use UML BPs a lot either. They are very good if you want to do graphical use cases for architects, but I don't think they have a lot of communicative value unless you know UML.


As a communication tool I've sold work with a really busy, boxy class diagram where the focus is on the connections and not a complete representation of all the properties.

Being able to stand in front of a big screen and point to and talk about connections and cardinalities magically draws questions and comments out from the business stakeholders. That feedback helps me get the model to a place where it generally matches what the business wants.

Keeping that diagram alive and updated as we implement the system has served as a super valuable tool for communication with other teams that need to touch the model. Everyone continuously hashes out and agrees on common terms, ownership, etc.

The worst defects come from requirements or design defects. I'm not advocating for giant up-front designs with hundred+ page software design spec docs. But, paraphrasing Uncle Bob, "'no up-front design' doesn't mean no design." There has to be some design of some sort and some documentation of the system being developed.

I think the time to stop diagramming/designing is when adding more detail won't communicate anything more about the model or business process in casual conversations about the system. That's a very subjective line to draw, but it helps me to think that way.


I absolutely hate UML and regard the associated tools as time swallowing abominations and the main advocates that I encountered as the worst kind of snake oil salespeople.

Of course, other people's experience may differ - but I largely thought it was a big con.


I think there's lots of potential for abuse/time wasting with UML. But consider the fact that when you're writing code, you're often focusing on two distinct concepts: implementation and design.

When designing, you are implicitly asking yourself: "what problem am I trying to solve, what data structures should I use to represent the elements of this problem, how should they relate to one another, what should this system interface look like, etc".

And when implementing, you are focusing on mapping those concepts from design into code. Often during implementation you can discover new elements of the problem or requirements that need solving. So implementation itself is valuable.

But design can be considered and reasoned about without requiring an implementation. Even without a peer to discuss the design with, considering "what if I decompose the data structures this way?" is a valuable exercise. Now, you don't need UML to do that. But you can leverage it to do that. I will posit that the screen-to-brain throughput of a UML diagram is greater than that of code or prose. Also, the brain-to-screen throughput of UML is probably better than those.

You might be surprised at the discussion inspired by a simple class diagram:

"Ok, sure, but which class holds the file descriptor?"

"None -- fred's working on a library that does that"

"No, Fred's library only considers the command line args but doesn't open the files."


I take your point, but for a UML diagram that describes things in levels of detail where those kinds of points can be addressed you could probably throw together a work proof of concept in real running code.

I'm not against diagrams or discussion of design, far from it, I just think that UML is a terrible notation - it makes people think they are working with blueprints rather than sketches.


Rational Rose was terrible at UX, but surprisingly it was a de-facto standard.


Now that was an expensive con. All UML bullshit is a joke: more energy is spent on being Correct than addressing the original issue UML was meant to solve.


To be fair, every modeling tool had terrible UX at that time - save for some domain-specific ones (e.g., NI had a great tool, but it only worked with their hardware components).


Well, imo the statement holds true with any of the UML -> Agile/Scrum(especially True Scrum, when it is your fault when it not works) and Lean/Kanban substitutions.

I wonder whether they are the same people selling bullets in different shades of silver though the ages, or it could be that the SW business is big enough that we can witness different species develop the same survival strategy of going from host to host and sucking their money out in different niches?


If those advocates were sellers, then they were all proposing this as a panacea - and no tool is a panacea. Anybody who promises to solve all your problems is selling snake oil.


Yes I do. When you have a team of developers with different model of how the system should work or works, it's usually a recipe for disaster. By modeling, we get to unify our thoughts and idea of the system.

When starting out a project, I tend to lean more towards well labeled conceptual diagrams. I will also use activity diagram, sequence and state diagrams.

While I have often read about people designing class diagram before hand, then writing or generating code. I never use class diagram before code is written. I use class diagram to document an existing system.

It's a tool, if you are willing to be flexible and realize it for what it is, then it's useful.


Any tool in particular that you suggest to make diagrams? Or maybe just pen and paper?

I tried StarUML 2 and it's ok but I found it slightly clunky (it also does not have a realtime collaboration feature as far as I know, that would be nice to have when your team is remote IMHO)


White board it, modeling should be a group activity. Everyone should contribute their ideas so we can converge towards one mental model. If I'm working with 1 or 2 developer, we can cluster around a table and use pen and paper. I only use professional tools if I'm going to be giving presentation or wish to store it for long term.

In Linux there is modelio, and there is also Visual Paradigm which is available on most platforms and has a free community edition.


thanks


Umlet: http://www.umlet.com/

Super easy to learn, efficient to use, runs anywhere, can reverse engineer Java code, free and open source.

It also comes with a palette so you can draw UML diagrams without knowing much UML.


Try https://www.lucidchart.com . It is slick, has real-time collaboration, has UML (including via markup) and lots of other diagrams. Freemium that allows you to do most things.


Unfortunately lucidchart is only a drawing tool (no model validation, no documentation nor code generation). If you need both real-time collaboration and real UML tool, you should try https://www.genmymodel.com


You should try https://www.genmymodel.com It is the first online modeling platform. It supports UML and real-time collaboration.


I use doxygen mixed with dot for rendering the UML. Mostly for looking over the layout of the code after it's written to make sure there aren't any lines/dependencies that there shouldn't be. The nice thing is that this leaves you with both an HTML doc and UMLs as PNGs. I haven't found any great tools for creating UMLs ahead of code... like for many here, that seems like a recipe for outdated/mismatched code to UML in the long run.


Helpinator already has basic diagram shapes (ellipses, boxes, arrows), and I just think it's enough for a help authoring tool. But the "client" is a bunch of cool old school guys from Australia, they bought an expensive license and plan to use Helpinator both for internal and end users docs, and I just can't say no without arguments. And arguments are that UML is still good for cool old school guys :)


holy crap! UML is for cool old school guys? that makes me what, great-grandfather?

by the way, do you guys do scrum?


Back in the late 80's, there was the CASE (Computer-Aided Software Engineering) fad, when it was thought diagrams could replace code.

The idea that a picture is worth a thousand words is not applicable to most of the words one would use to discuss systems designs. It is very difficult to discuss purpose and intent, or to present arguments that the design satisfies requirements or observes constraints, to justify choices, and say how things work, through any sort of diagram, let alone only those of UML (use cases are something of an exception, as they are not actually diagrams.)

On the other hand, diagrams are a very useful adjunct to these activities, and are widely used in informal discussions. This is broadly in line with how diagrams and pictures are used in other technical and scholarly fields: for example, maps, statistical charts and pictures of places and artifacts are very useful in history articles, but are never the full story.

Furthermore, I can usually write a thousand words faster than I can draw the corresponding UML diagram. The UML I am most likely to use will be machine-generated from code and will be used as a supplement to the text I am writing.


When going into a new OOP project, I like to browse the code and create class diagrams for it.

It's intersting to see what classes aren't used at all and where all the associations accumulate.

Also, if the "previous devs" are still around it's easier to talk with them about these pictures, than to talk about 100 text files.


Good point. I find sequence diagrams can be useful in places, as well.


UML is too heavy and rigid.

I use my own subset/version of UML, which uses a simplified "grammar", and allows you to express basically only the following:

- Class with attributes - Parent/child relationship - One-to-one relationship - One-to-many relationship - Many-to-many relationship

If I have some other need (rare), then I improvise. Usually I'm the only one who looks at these, but if a client or someone else needs to, the language is simple enough to understand that I can explain it in a few examples/sentences.


An ERD (Entity Relationship Diagram) might be simpler and clearer. In my experiences, stakeholders find them easier to follow than UML class diagrams.


For me its also a lot more useful to document he data model rather than class diagrams. The data model usually changes less than the code.


Agreed. You are right – what I do is much more similar to ERD than UML.


Not exactly UML but I find rails-erd can be helpful to understand a data model, particularly if I'm trying to come up to speed on an existing codebase. It has the very large benefit of automatically staying in sync with the code.

https://github.com/voormedia/rails-erd


"What's your favorite editor?" pales in comparison to the divisiveness inspired by "how do you feel about UML?"

I used Rational Rhapsody for a few years. We used it for use case diagrams, sequence diagrams, class diagrams, object model diagrams, statecharts+code generation.

Many folks scoff at and draw the line at code generation. By default, tools like Rhapsody seek to box you in to a certain way of doing things. It's not difficult at all to customize but it requires effort to opt out of some defaults. I felt like I experienced significant pros and cons. One one hand it was awkward to use their IDE to edit the code. OTOH it helped encourage a level of organization to the code. Statecharts are very expressive and very clear, I really liked them. There's no limit to the expressiveness of the code you can write. But the vocabulary used to describe the widgets I was working with was new to me, so it took a good deal of time to look up and understand the customizations required.

In the absence of code generation features of UML, the diagramming features are really great. Developers are too quick to treat it like a religion and (on both sides) become inspired to pray at the altar or preach about the evil that lies within. But really, it's just a glossary of visual representations mapped to software design concepts. That's all it needs to be -- conventions like the ones used in other engineering discipline's diagrams. Diagrams with "boxes and arrows" are just fine but there's always the implicit questions: "does that rectangle represent the process executing the 'flabtisticator executable' or the 'flabtisticator class'?


I co-wrote a book on UML years ago. Back then, I thought that UML diagrams helped with communication. However, Sequence Diagrams are the only type of diagrams I use anymore.

For Java, perhaps high level class diagrams are still useful also, but I have been switching over to using Haskell (as much as I can) and I have not worked on a large Java project in a long while.


Yes, but not in the formal sense. And i don't get why agile and proper documentation should not go Hand in Hand. There are components and class Diagramms that are invaluable for me when i'm joining an existing code base. Even if they are not up-to-date everytime.

State and sequence diagrams are really cool to discuss dynamic flows and identify potential logic holes. UML-like diagrams are way better then to come up with your own representation of this everytime


Time limits, I guess. It's the only reason not to create good documentation. If you fail to deliver on time there's no need in good project docs. More like a chronic desease.


A lack of good project documentation should be treated as technical debt and handled accordingly


For a while I used UML but whenever I showed them to even experienced developers they didn't understand them. So I went back to simple box and arrows. Easier to understand and also easier to create and modify. Flow charts and state machine diagram usually work too.

I almost have a prejudice against people who use UML because a lot of them seem to be the "architect" types who talk about integration patterns and stuff but don't get much done.


I am on a 5 min break of working on a school project where lots of UML diagrams are required. I was finishing our last required sequence diagrams right now!

Although this is a small team project, making the diagram takes at least 5 times the time needed to write the code. In our team of 4, 3 of us will not need to write code.

I understand it is good for management but I hope I will never be required to do this ever again.


I don't think i ever did. It feels like an enormous waste of time.


Sequence and state diagrams are fine, why not using them when you want to communicate certain things?


I notice that young coders hate to deal with diagrams. Customers are more and more educated in IT, so in most cases there's no need for intermediate language to communicate.


I do. UML class diagrams can help you turn real world business objects into model and think about dependencies and relationships of entities. I would say that it is the best tool to model software. Sequence and activity diagrams can help you design and document a process.

A picture is sometimes worth hundred words and this applies to UML as well.


Sure, pictures are great for communication. But is UML required? A lot of teams that I observe go with arrows and boxes on a whiteboard, and everything is clear nonetheless.


IMO UML adds negative value because, with only a very few exceptions, its semantics are carried by shapes that have no mnemonic relation to the concepts they are intended to communicate. What is the difference between a dashed line and a thin vertical box in a sequence diagram? A hollow vs a filled diamond in a class diagram? Does:

C1 ---> C2

mean that C1 inherits from C2 or that C2 inherits from C1? Does:

C1 ---* C2

[Note: the * is supposed to be a filled-in black diamond, but HN apparently doesn't allow unicode characters in comments.]

mean that C1 contains instances of C2 or that C2 contains instances of C1? What would it mean if the diamond were hollow instead of filled? What is the difference between a solid and a dashed line in a class diagram? A sequence diagram?

The only way you can possibly know the answers to these questions is if you have mastered an enormous amount of trivia. And then what have you actually gained? How is a class diagram better than simply writing out as text, "Class C1 inherits from C2, C3 and C4, and contains single instances of C6, C6 a set of C7s, and an ordered list of C8s?"

In >90% of cases, the information conveyed by UML can be much more easily and effectively communicated by plain text.


> How is a class diagram better than simply writing out as text, "Class C1 inherits from C2, C3 and C4, and contains single instances of C6, C6 a set of C7s, and an ordered list of C8s?"

I agree with much of your criticism of UML, but there is significant value in having a visual representation of class interactions. Your text takes longer to parse and understand than a simple diagram would be. For scenarios with numerous classes, the diagram becomes far easier than a text description.


> the diagram becomes far easier than a text description

If the text is hyperlinked it can be every bit as easy to follow as a diagram. In fact, it can be easier if things are really complicated because it allows you to focus your attention more easily just on the parts that matter to you at any given time.


I don't agree with this at all. People naturally draw diagrams to demonstrate complex things. Any time a technical discussion gets complex, someone walks to a whiteboard or pulls out a piece of paper and starts drawing flows or interactions or whatever to clarify the discussion. Never have I seen someone say, "this is getting hard to follow, let me write some prose".

If class diagrams are useless then so are bar graphs and scatter plots. You can just list out the data points and everyone can read them.


No, graphs and scatter plots are useful because the spatial distribution of markings actually conveys useful information: things that are physically close to each other are mathematically close to each other. But most UML diagrams aren't like that. And even for the ones that do try to convey information that has spatial analogs (like containment) UML doesn't actually take advantage of spatial relationships between elements. For example, the natural way to express containment is by putting one element inside the other in the diagram. That makes it obvious what contains what. But that's not how UML does it.

Just about the only diagram that has a natural mapping from spatial relationships of the diagram elements to the actual underlying semantics is the sequence diagram.


"Spatial" isn't particularly meaningful when talking about classes, so it's not surprising that UML doesn't generally attempt to express that.

We can probably just agree to disagree here. I think class diagrams are often quite useful. They existed before UML and they are used even by people who don't use UML.


> We can probably just agree to disagree here

That works for me :-)


For general purpose data modeling, I tend to favor some loose variant of Bachman or Chen notation. UML feels complicated to the point of being hard to read.

For architectural diagrams, I just use basic boxes, arrows, cans, etc. UML also tends to feel complicated to the point of being hard to read.

In both of the above cases, I think my not using UML is because its goals differ from mine. UML seeks to capture how a system comes together as completely an accurately as possible. I tend to think that the code should suffice for that (and if it doesn't, it's time to have a long hard talk about technical debt). I prefer diagrams to just be a gloss that helps to explain how things come together at a high level.

For understanding protocols and suchlike, though, UML sequence diagrams are my go-to. That's a rare spot where I really do want the diagram to capture a whole lot of fine detail, and the UML standard provides a pretty clear, intuitive and uncluttered visual language for the job.


Yes. It is the language designed for software engineers to share designs, logic and ideas with others. I never enjoy the scene that two engineers talk designs in front a white board by keep writing some random words they catched during talk and draw some wired line and cycles. The most painful part is that even they take a picture of it, they still have to argue about the ideas later when they start coding. :-(

UML is actually the first language a software developer should learn. The most ridiculous words I have heard is that a senior engineer "mentor" other juniors say the IBM Rose is UML! And argue about how Rose huge and hard to use.

I really worry if there still have some deciplines exist in software industry, if so many people still obsessed to call themself software engineer?


Yes, all the time.

We don't go full UML, but it is the best tool to have a solid architecture overview, before committing to solutions that won't fit with what customers actually want.

It is also a very good tool to onboard new developers into the team without forcing them spending endless hours reading code.


I do quite a lot. I use it for sketching out and documenting software. I use state machines for, well, state machines, which make up 90% of the software I write (embedded). They can almost mechanically be transformed to sourcecode, but I do the coding by hand. I use it for sequence diagram to sketch out and document sequences of events, and also generate sequence diagrams out of trace logs. And finally I use class diagrams to document the software architecture. For all of these I use plantuml because the text format is simple, human readable, and easily versioned. For the kind of software I write (embedded software with a lot of state machines and strong OO architecture), it is absolutely great. Definitely one of the big tools in my toolbox.


I'm teaching it. It feels increasingly out of date. Tool support has stagnated for years on Linux. Modern features like lambdas are not really supported.


> Modern features like lambdas

"Modern" as in "Introduced to programming languages 35 years before the invention of UML, finally turning up in Java 20 years after the invention of UML"?


Yes. Why did the functional programming people need so long to convince the rest of the benefits?


For the same reason that it always takes conservative people long to understand the benefits of what they are fighting against?


I don't and if you're religious about it, I'm afraid I don't want to work with you (I accept the feeling may be mutual)!

Most developers don't have a complete knowledge of it and don't enjoy writing it; essentially I believe it's because they know it's not an efficient way of communicating ideas with other developers.

Modelling can be useful, but as far as I can work out something like gliffy with lines, boxes and little else is almost always sufficient. I'd imagine safety critical space or aviation systems and other niches are a different kettle of fish.


Been working in a large corp for last 5 years. Never created a single UML chart, maybe I've seen one or two.

Maybe it's because I work in front-end, which "traditionally" is a bit less strict (JS is dynamically typed etc.), but also, I think that typically the codebase changes too rapidly and the fancy graphs can't catch up with that, they get outdated in a few months, and no one bothers to update them or even look at them anymore (they might be useful in the beginning of the project though).


Yes. Keep in mind though that the - perhaps historically, perhaps still - most widely used kind of UML diagram - the class diagram - is just one component of UML.

Other than for explaining particular design patterns I don't find class diagrams all that useful, certainly not for giving you a complete picture of a system that consists of more than a handful of classes.

Sequence diagrams, state diagrams, use case diagrams, basically anything that involves or describes activities: I think those are tremendously useful.


It is useful if you are able to generate code from it. I know one big software company (more than 3000 employee) that generate 90% of all it's code base (~20M lines of code).


Must be some pretty trivial software, since 90% of the code base is apparently class and function declarations filled with empty or pointless (get/set) OO garbage.


Some enterprise software, most of the patterns are well know and the customization point are well defined. I would describe more as a well know domain with clear constraints than trivial software. They generate a lot of code also for high critical real time software (avionics and space) but that is not really trivial.


I'm skeptical the code generators are used for the actual function bodies at any level. That's 90% of any non-trivial code, not function and class declarations and stubs.


I wonder how that company pulled this one off. In my experience, UML diagrams end up either too shallow to be useful for code generation, or so dense that they're totally useless for communication with non-technical stakeholders.


I don't know the details so I couldn't say. I was surprised as well to be honest. I talked briefly with one of the owners, he did know quite in a deep way what he was talking about. A lot of emphasis for the process, using new technologies but without the 'madness' that we see usually in the Javascript world.


I bet they sell quality software..


No way of knowing unless we can exam it. Could be the best stuff ever.


They provide value for a relevant number of enterprise customers, so somehow yes.


It's just big corporations bullshit to fill meetings time.


Good UML diagrams are hard to write, easy to understand.

I used to write a lot of UML diagrams in Mechatronics Engineering for a big company, where specs were not supposed to change often. For projects with a long lifetime and a slow change velocity, UML is totally justified.

UML diagrams are not worth it for Software Engineering: code evolve too fast to keep your diagrams up to date. In that case, I replace UML diagrams by simple sketchs / mockups and simple tables.


Even bad UML diagrams are hard to write for a human that is more into typing than drawing. I was even forced to create text-to-UML tool when I was a young dev. Saved a lot of time.


I would say it really depends... There are UML diagram generators with whcih you might want to integrate (e.g., PlantUML) that would meet the needs of someone creating documentation. Alternately, they may use their own UML tool (or a free one like Eclipse Papyrus) to create the diagrams they need and then extract those as pictures that you can import.

IMHO, adding full UML support is crazy for your application and would potentially add years of development.

Even adding simple, non-model based UML creation would be a significant burden if you are a small company. Plus, there might be open source generators or generators you could call programatically to generate the images desired.

But first, you probably need to better understand your client's actual needs. I have doubts that they would need all the UML diagrams...


I'm an extremely visual person so for me diagrams are incredibly useful. I'm constantly drawing class diagrams and communicating via pictures. I want UML to work so bad.

Unfortunately, I think UML suffers from all the dysfunctions of a language designed by many stakeholders. It's just not intuitive, so you have to remember the details. I start practically every handwaivy whiteboarding session with the disclosure "this is not UML but ...".

As with many "standards", we've sucked the oxygen out of the room by saying this is the one true way. I very much prefer having multiple competing specifications and letting the winner shake out. I imagine if we hadn't prematurely standardized on UML years ago, visual programming and diagramming would have evolved in exactly the same way regular programming languages have evolved. Why do I have 30+ choices for what to write my web server in, but only 1 seriously spec'ed out language for drawing it?


Nope. Whiteboards and maybe a photo of it for posterity :-)


As almost in any case with computer science, the answer is "depends".

UML diagrams can be very useful to represent a system to someone which is not technical enough to understand code, but can understand the basics of the diagrams.

Personally, to myself it's usually more a waste of my time.


UML was useful for visually communicating document architectures in the Web 1.0 world. But what's a UML diagram for a dynamic web application? Server<-->Database, done? If the tool doesn't fit the problem, don't use it.

And then there's the domain specific UMLs, such as Operations Management and BPMN, where the diagram can be programmatically "powered up" to analyze operational efficiency. If you work in a hierarchical organization where you need deliverables that filter to other departments, and there is a perceived value, then someone is going to be tasked to make it. But in a flat organization in startup mode, it's a waste of money.

If you're working across organizations, in public/private partnerships; if your government organization needs to be accountable at diverse levels, then UML is visual language that communicates a lot of information at once--in one artifact. Tax dollars going for new transportation infrastructure in New York City, maybe there's a need to get diverse groups on board. But you're going to pave potholes in Levittown, NY--who cares? Get it done; stop wasting money.

And finally, there is a the language-cultural dimension. Europe is multi-lingual, so it's no surprise the Open-Education Resources offering UML-like education materials are from European universities [1][2], and not American Universities. That's not our language problem (yet).

If you have a customer asking for UML, you need to understand their problems. Once you do that, then you can decide if the problem vector they present is profitable sector for your company.

To put all this in other words, UML is a tool and a visual language. Use it or not, it's not going away--ever.

[1]: https://open.hpi.de/courses/bpm2016

[2]: https://www.edx.org/course/creative-problem-solving-decision...


UML use case, activity, and sequence diagrams are perhaps quite useful. I'm too lazy to make them :-) but I find them useful to consult at times.

The class diagrams that everyone is really thinking about when they say "UML" are imho kind of useless. It reflects a kind of obsessive OO purism, and taxonomical obsession, that was quite trendy in the late 90s, early 2000s.

But it turns out in most cases looking at a class diagram doesn't really tell you much about what software does or how it works. And in any case I personally find it easier to look at header files or source files to get a picture of how things fit together. Class diagrams don't really help.


#Related

There was a recent talk about the model-code gap [1]. How diagrams often don't map to the code. The C4 model. "Structurizr." Lack of common abstractions to describe software, in contrast with other fields like electrical engineering. Good to still start out with paper/whiteboard.

@7:13 "1 out of 10 people use UML," in his experience. People adopt ad hoc notations instead.

His use of UML is not for describing the system at a high level.

[1] GOTO 2016 • Visualise, Document and Explore Your Software Architechture • Simon Brown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM_J_jRp62g


The best way to make sure your diagrams map to code, is to generate your diagrams and the code from a common piece of text.

At a job not too long ago, we used a modified form of DOT to describe a protocol state machine. This generated dot, .h's, and some template .c files. This made it such that each state machine for the protocol had a diagram that would map out all the states. Logging and other subsystems output were generated as well so you could go from a log of a test run back to a diagram of what had run.

Code generation (or compilers for compilers) are entirely underrated outside of Lisp, and they're not too difficult to create.

EDIT: And note that your linked presentation is AWESOME, but I think he misses the description / guidebook being up to date is best accomplished by having it be what needs to be updated to create the software.


I draw UML diagrams frequently. I almost never persist them, though. As they say, the only thing worse than no documentation is out of date documentation.

I can definitely see an argument for certain types of projects (libraries and frameworks). If you have diagramming capability, and you are in the enterprise Windows market, I think this is a no-brainer. I'd be curious what diagramming support you had if it were not UML....

Having said that, I wouldn't try to implement a full object modelling solution. It's not the kind of thing that help files need. Actor diagrams and sequence diagrams would make more sense to me.


Yes. Everyday. With a pencil on a notebook.

When I take notes, some concepts are better/faster materialized as relationships between objects or actors or activities

Also reasoning about schematics topology is useful and enlightening when a problem is large


Btw when I need to sketch uml on a computer I use violet uml


I'll often use sequence diagrams or entity relationship diagrams when I need to explain how a piece of code works (or even just visualize it for myself). I don't tend to be very pedantically correct about it, but having a picture makes it a lot easier to follow how different pieces fit together. I generally leave out a lot of the less important details when doing this.

I wouldn't generally use it to design code that hadn't been written yet. There's a lot you only discover once you get something working, and that needs to inform the design.


I have used mostly the class diagrams and sequence diagrams.

I like how UML class diagrams defines the different potential relations between objects involved in software.

It would be nice if more people (myself included) learned better ways to consistently communicate software design. Lots of ad-hoc meetings result in confusion because often a design is scribbled in ones own notation then communication takes longer. But yet such communication is crucial to large projects.

Some call it architecture, others call it design patterns. Either way its important to have thought-out, standard ways to communicate ideas.


I haven't found a better activity diagramming tool than PlantUML with Vim's aklt/plantuml-syntax and using watch to automatically build the diagrams.

I challenge any of you to come up with something better.


Probably it is not. I think I'm late enough that I missed the UML wave, and I also did well enough on the AP CS test that I tested out of the CS 101 Java course in college, and got thrown into the Haskell one instead, so I was never forced to do UML.

Once in a while I'll fire up Visio and sketch out a state machine or sequence diagram, but all I'm really doing is throwing down some bubbles or rectangles, drawing some arrows between them, and tacking on some labels. It's nowhere near as formalized as UML, but it works well enough.


I only ever used it for school projects, and only because it was required.


Some 10 years ago I took part in two very large projects in two different organizations, and in both cases all our shiny diagrams were scrapped at the end. So sad :)


For school projects, we did all the code, and then generated UML accordingly...

All teachers knew that, but let it go


I sometimes create UML diagrams but I try to simplify them as much as possible. Sequence and Entity relationship diagrams are useful but the rest is rubbish IMHO. I tend to use them only when I'm in the planning phase but I ditch them when they become obsolete and the application is ready. This might not be the best workflow but updating diagrams is horrible. You also can't really use UML for functional languages like Clojure. I feel that they are becoming more obsolete with each passing year.


I'm really lazy when it comes to maintaining docs and mainaining UML is sometimes a pain so I only use dynamic parts of UML like sequence diagrams on a relatively generic level that is less likely to change (examples of call flow between modules/tiers with different responsibilities).

Class diagrams are pretty nice when building a rich domain model since it's pretty easy to move from rough conceptual level closer to designing and documenting the actual implementation while working on the same diagram over time.


I never got into it to begin with. But I did ended up using a form of few diagrams that I later learned were part of UML. They just come to anyone who's solving a problem naturally.


I'd rather use XML than UML and that's saying something.


UML diagrams are practical, but there's a cost to creating them and maintaining them. You can argue that many tools have been created to address this problem, but the problem remains... especially maintaining them.

Now, sequence diagrams remain one of the best ways of explaining distributed workflows (e.g: OAuth) that I know of. If you work with an OOP language, a class diagram might be useful to express some ideas. Other UML diagrams are less used.


No, and yes. I, and my last few places I worked all use sequence diagrams, especially when dealing with a new feature with a microservices based architecture (private and gov clients). But very basic usage. I do spend a lot of time tinkering with diagrams in http://www.websequencediagrams.com both for work and hobby projects.


I still think in use cases but without the goofy graphics. I just make a Markdown bulleted list then give the use cases each a name and a short description.


Old habits die hard :) I always start a new project with actors and use cases, but without any diagrams.


I use sequence and communication diagrams, but I find the other diagramming techniques less applicable to the type of work I do. In the systems I work with most problems arise from transitions between states and from communication issues between isolated units. I find that static models just end up having to change rapidly throughout the implementation, so I focus on creating APIs and tests instead.


In recent times, about on the same level as ERDs for databases. So mostly as a quick top-level sketch when designing something (mostly on paper), not really kept up to date when the code/model changes. Goes along with getting away from rigid class models in general, and for UI classes, the relationships are a bit more self-evident.

I do miss Booch's fluffy clouds a bit, though.


Even Grady Booch thinks that UML is not so useful.


UML (as ERD) is used by the official IT certification in Japan. So yes, some of us still have to learn it.

cf. https://www.jitec.ipa.go.jp/1_04hanni_sukiru/mondai_kaitou_2...


The only concept of UML I use is the N-many relationships, adding a number or asterisk to the edges between things.


Yes - mainly for communicating with other teams. Its not the full spec, but a sub section, so that others (mainly the security architecture review) can understand the basic parts of the system.

I tried to keep it up to date for the public docs, but that can be an uphill battle.


I don't use UML, nor its predecessors going back to the early 1980's. I draw little pictures to ensure I understand what my code is/will do but that's it. Formal diagrams are as useful as formal documentation written wearing a formal suit.


If I must use UML, I prefer using Yuml (http://yuml.me) to generate them.

Easy to use, allows you to "code" the UML structure in a simple template language, and the output looks rather nice.


Sometimes I like to use class diagrams for my models and sequence diagrams for API calls. State diagrams.

But just for higher concept sketching and most definitely not for generating code. I tried that, 12 years ago with Rational Rose. Boy did it suck.


Sometimes, in google drawings to talk about code or systems architecture in the abstract


Is it general coders talk or project-related? Do you use it to communicate with clients?


Yes, used the UML class diagrams, sequence diagrams and Statechart diagrams for an embedded device software.

It's just a tool for modelling. You can pick and choose the diagrams you need, and at the abstraction level you desire.


which uml tool you use? tried umbrello and argouml but not very impressed.


We used Enterprise Architect.


Usually I diagram the very high level architecture of the program. Anything lower is to volatile and wouldn't reflect the design due to code changing all the time.


In the last 16 years (i've worked at over 10 companies) i've only had one company use UML and it was only for an overview of the proposed architecture.


And is there a better tool for displaying "an overview of the proposed architecture"?


never did. whats the point?


Communication. You get a shared language between people in hopes that when you draw a box it could mean the same thing to people in different orgs and cultures. Can't really design anything large without communication.


It was a buzzword at the end of 90's - first 00's, the purpose was to make developers and customers speak the same language.


To impress your business friends.


ERD's and Sequence Diagrams are helpful on occasion, that's it though. And those can be done in any drawing tool.


No, nor have I seen any diagrams or had it mentioned to me by any other programmer for at least 5 years.


plantuml is nice. ;)


It is, but mainly for sequence diagrams, flow charts and state diagrams. I think OP is asking more about object/class diagrams which I've never seen much value in.


There's no evidence to think that at all. He's talking about diagramming for helpinator, which could very well include sequence diagrams, flow charts and state diagrams.

Biased a little?


Plantuml + org-mode = live, up-to-date high level design docs


UML seemed to be tailored for java. I stopped using it when i stopped using java


No, I have always hated it. I rather be flipping burgers at McDonalds than use UML.


I like to draw UML every so often.

Question to HN: What tools do you guys use to draw UML diagrams?


planUML changed my view on UML. The basic application is extremely ugly and the output is far from being good looking, but writing UML in plain text is extremely refreshing.


You mean PlantUML?


Oh, yes indeed!


requirements in any real life scenario change every day, useless


I guess that is the reason why UML failed. Documentation updates took more time than coding.


never have, never will.


I use it in interviews. That is about it.


Aye those rites of passage


No. Not worth it.




Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | DMCA | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: