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MacBookPro vs. Surface Book (codeclimber.net.nz)
58 points by douche 241 days ago | hide | past | web | 128 comments | favorite



>I have a super-old MacBook Pro, “early 2009” Core 2 Duo, that is still working pretty ok till now, after having boosted RAM to 8Gb and disk with an SSD. With a lifetime of 7 years and half, having kept all my previous laptop maximum 3 years, this is the longest living computer I ever had, more than twice.

remember he hasn't actually used the new Macbook pro.. or the new surface book. He's just basing this on the old versions of the laptop and adding his own thoughts to it


How do you know he hasn't used them?


Because the Macbook pro 2016 has been announced but not released and for the surface book here is what he said

"Processing Power

This is difficult to do a fair comparisons, especially when comparing prices later, because, while for the MacBook Pros we know exactly their clock speed and if they are dual-core or quad-core, there are no specs for the new Surface Book. I read somewhere they used the same processors of the previous model, so dual-core i5 2.4Ghz and dual-core i7 2.6Ghz. Which is more than the revamped MBP whose i5 is 2.0Ghz and i7 is 2.4Ghz, but (much) less than the new models which have an i5 with 2.9Ghz and i7 up to 3.3Ghz and even a quad-core i7 2.9Ghz for the 15”.

Winner: MacBook Pro"

relevant portion: there are no specs for the new Surface Book. I read somewhere they used the same processors of the previous model


http://www.windowscentral.com/new-surface-book-configuration... This is one updated SKU, but by the looks of it you are right. They are using the same CPU.


As a happy android user, generally disliking the iPhone, I am not part of the Apple ecosystem really. However, Windows 10 is such a total dumpster fire - privacy nightmare, usability nightmare, unprompted upgrades without the ability to opt out, and so on... I can't bear to use a windows 10 laptop. I do in fact have one. It cost $2000 and the trackpad is basically unusably bad. So... I will with some reluctance upgrade to another macbook, simply because the alternative is truly horrifying.


>As a happy android user...Windows 10 is such a total dumpster fire - privacy nightmare...

I don't understand how you can be happy with Google collecting anything/everything you do on an Android, but then complain when Microsoft does a fraction of the data collection.


Mostly because I'm not benefitting from it :)

But the real problem is that Windows 10 is simply awful to use.


What makes it awful to use?


I need to carry a high-end PC laptop (4k screen, 980GTX, etc.) and a MacBook Pro (Mid 2014). I used to use Windows 70% of the time and OSX the other 30%. That's flipped to 95% OSX, 5% Windows, since Windows 10.

I completely mirror your thoughts. Windows 10 is an absolute disaster. I've lovingly used Windows since version 3.1.

The 4k screen is basically unusable when I'm plugged into an external monitor - no setting seems to get HiDPI and regular playing nicely. Windows has automatically updated the drivers at least three times, leaving it in a non bootable state, which has taken numerous hours to fix each time. System restore points are now absolutely vital.

The trackpad is completely unusable, I find myself accidentally moving files and folders about when I really didn't want to.

Forced upgrades are a disaster. They always seem to happen at horrendously inconvenient times. There's nothing quite like having three or four people standing around while you wait for Windows to install updates for a completely indeterminate amount of time.

Adverts (or what certainly look them) on my start bar... really?

The absolute mess of numerous different styles of settings screen - I used to know my way round Windows like a Pro. Now I have no clue when I click a setting if it's going to show me classic style window or a fullscreen Metro options screen.


I still am the lone Windows 8 was a better GUI guy, but Microsoft gave what people wanted in 10.

I have not had your problem with 4k and 1080p mine plays nice with each other. I think it might be a driver issue on your graphics card.


OH yes, the start menu. Do you want Donald Trump on your start menu? Really, Microsoft? (I think it was on the flipboard icon, I don't remember, I don't care....)


Wait, are you complaining that an app you used and had pinned to Start put an image you didn't like there? Why not unpin or uninstall the app?


I remember when I first used Windows 10 I found that a bunch of things were pinned there by default, one of which was probably a news app that included thumbnails in its icon. It's maybe a tad unfortunate that the parent poster had been confronted with Donald Trump's face in said icon, but it's a weird default to have IMO


I'm 99% sure those apps do not have "live tiles" until you run them at least once (and many of those default pinned apps, which change over time and depend on Edition, are not actually installed until you first click on them).


>Adverts (or what certainly look them) on my start bar... really?

Sounds more like malware than windows 10.



Nothing said here is true. Windows 10 is not a "privacy nightmare" (ironic coming from an Android user!), nor a usability one. There are no unprompted upgrades, but it is aggressive about keeping your device up-to-date (will auto reboot if you postpone too long) which is A Good Thing.


Let's agree to disagree then.

The autoupdate scheduling is terrible. You can set a "active hours" window where it won't try to force reboot on you, but it's limited to 8 hours, and there's no provision for setting different active hours on weekdays vs weekends. Because obviously the usage profile on my home computer is the same on Wednesday as it is on Saturday.

The autoupdates load garbage onto your computer (Candy Crush Soda Saga?) even if you've previously uninstalled it and obviously didn't want it.

I paid >$100 for this, and it's stuffed with ads. Solitaire and Minesweeper are freemium apps with a subscription of $10/year to get rid of ads. Seriously? Minesweeper needs to be a subscription?

I've been running Windows on my desktops, but I've lately relegated it to gaming only, and am dual booting Linux for programming and content creation work.

Windows 7 was great, it stayed out of the way and let me get my work done. Windows 10 has a feeling that I have to work around the computer to trick it into letting me be productive.


> The autoupdates load garbage onto your computer (Candy Crush Soda Saga?)

I've been using Windows 10 before it had a public release and I've never seen anything like this on my machines. It seems like you really have a mess on yours.

I also removed anything that I didn't want from the Start menu. I don't understand why you wouldn't do the same.

It sounds like the problem here is not really Windows 10.


Old thread, but another thing making the rounds today: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3138493/windows/here-we-go-ag...

I know you're going to tell me I should just close the advertisement and the problem here isn't really Windows 10, but the problem is that the ads exist in the first place after I paid $120 for it.


The problem absolutely is windows 10. From elsewhere in the thread: https://rcpmag.com/articles/2016/08/24/anniversary-update-re...


> Solitaire and Minesweeper are freemium apps with a subscription of $10/year to get the full version. Seriously? Minesweeper needs to be a subscription?

Is this true? You have to have a paid subscription to get what is the equivalent of some 1992 public domain game?


The main result of paying for Premium is that it removes the advertising.

Why that sort of advertising has been baked into a $120 operating system, I have no idea. I guess someone got greedy and figured nobody would quit the OS over it. Their Weather app is full of ads too, last I checked.

It's a large factor in why I've switched to Linux as much as possible, though MS still got my money for a W10 license so it's not much of a victory.

http://www.pcgamer.com/windows-10-solitaire-requires-a-subsc...


It feels like the height of bad taste to have ads baked into your OS. I can't imagine anyone feeling better or happier that they have ads in their OS. Seems a very crass move.


The apps and games you mentioned aren't part of the OS. And remember, Windows 10 was free if you got it in the first year.


I got it in the first year (was actually running all the insider builds before the retail release).

The free license was tied to my motherboard which promptly died, so I had to buy a new one at full price.

EDIT: And besides, just because they're not an essential feature doesn't make me happy that the previously included things have been removed. Say what you will about Apple's hardware, but they went the opposite direction with bundled software. Keynote/Pages/Numbers used to be an optional package ($50 IIRC), but shifted to an included feature. They don't even have banner/video ads shoved all over.


This is in fact untrue. You would not have needed a new license for a replacement motherboard if that really happened. At worst you might need to make a phone call to MS, though even that is an unusual case.


> if you got it in the first year.

You are really trying to get me out of the bounds of acceptable decorum of this site. Really??? I see a very prominent conditional in your reply. I suppose MS has a right to screw over people who got free upgrades (not really), but I got to pay for my copy of Windows with a new computer a few weeks ago and still get the privilege of seeing all the anti-consumer crap that comes with it. I'd also venture a guess that proportion of users who aren't using free upgrade offer will increase with time - how is your argument supposed to age, Brandon?


Putting a couple ads in free games in the App Store is not "screwing over people". Nor is it "anti-consumer".

In fact, the whole point isn't even to make money from them, but to support the Windows developer ecosystem by promoting other apps and jump starting a viable ad network.

Also note that Apple and Google do the same thing.


> Putting a couple ads in free games in the App Store is not "screwing over people". Nor is it "anti-consumer".

Games came with the OS therefore they are part of the OS. If you didn't want them to be part of the OS then you shouldn't have included them. If I'm paying premium then I don't want to be INSULTED with ads. Nor with telemetry that's borderline spyware which was my outburst more about. All that is beside the point which was that you're making a dubious argument that applies to only a portion of people.

> but to support the Windows developer ecosystem by promoting other apps and jump starting a viable ad network.

And to that I say fire entire marketing team. How will a couple thousand fools that bought $10 upgrades in Minesweeper help jump start anything? Does Microsoft employ underpants gnomes because the plan doesn't follow. Marketing team is burning bridges way faster than foss software releasing portion of Microsoft is making them, there's no point in jump starting anything if marketing shortcuts any trust customers could possibly have in the platform. Every one of my friends doesn't trust Windows 10, even nontechy ones and the best/worst part is, I didn't have to help them.

> Also note that Apple and Google do the same thing.

If they are super abusive then so can be Microsoft. Flawless logic. I'll add that Google and Apple started their BS on mobile platforms which were for some time their own thing and people didn't care if they were soiling their own turf. The trouble with Microsoft is that they are exporting this excrement to PC segment of computing platforms which had established norms that were in place for decades that you are now breaking. If you kept telemetry/ads BS only on Windows Phones literally nobody would care.


The core games are still free but they have embraces the "in-app purchase" model of offering extras for $$$.


@konrad As is often the case there's a hint of truth but overall it's misleading. They're not talking about the old-school Win32 games, but rather the new Xbox Live-enabled games which are free-to-play and offer a bunch of premium functionality like tournaments and regular content additions - things most people don't need but some enthusiasts presumably appreciate. You can play it for free with a much, much wider range of games and features than the old 1992 classic.

Updates should never reinstall anything you've removed (including Candy Crush).


> Updates should never reinstall anything you've removed (including Candy Crush).

And yet it did. Looking into it, MS is playing the "bug" card and has said it won't happen next time. I'm not sure whether to believe them, or if it was a "we wanted to see if we could get away with it" approach to getting more ad installs.

https://rcpmag.com/articles/2016/08/24/anniversary-update-re...

While it shouldn't be reinstalling apps you've removed, they still intend to automatically add new "promoted apps" to your start menu. But each time they sell a slot, you should only need to remove it the one time and it won't come back.


This is incorrect. The programmed pinned apps in the current releases of Win10 are only applied to new installs or when upgrading from Win7 or 8.x. They are never applied during Win10 updates (unless there's a bug of course). The entire pinned space is customizable by the user and user customizations are always maintained.


Ah I see, I figured this was just plain Minesweeper that you could have played on an Apple ][e! Thanks for the info, it isn't quite as bad as it initially sounded. Shame that there is still advertising in the OS though.


I'm a long time Windows user and I've never experienced the problems described above.

I stick to Enterprise though, maybe that's why?


Auto Reboot to install an update is never a good thing, and totally unacceptable. I recently saw someone miss a conference presentation because their (Windows) laptop decided to do this. It doubled down on my determination to never touch Windows again.


I respectfuly disagree. Unprompted upgrades are only a good thing if they don't cause down-time.


Coming from Linux I HATE how updates require a reboot on Windows. I got into the habit of just powering off all the time with Windows now that I have a SSD. It seriously is a 10 second boot and I never have these reboot issues.


What proportion of Windows updates require a reboot? Are we talking about OS updates or application ones too? I remember this being ridiculous 10 years ago; if it's still a thing in 2016, I'm quite glad I moved over to OSX.


Reboots are usually required for monthly "patch Tuesday" updates, though sometimes they are not. Out-of-band updates are rare but do happen in the event of a critical, urgent security update.

The OS only sets a deadline for the reboot (where it will force if you postpone too long) if the update includes a critical security update.

Firmware and core driver updates also require a reboot, but don't have deadlines and the schedule depends on the hardware vendor.

Oh, and if your machine is in the Windows Insider program, all build upgrades have deadlines so you hit the "forced reboot" much more often than a normal user.


It's the monthly updates. Also it is AppleOS :P


FWIW macOS also requires reboot for system updates.


It's a 'Good Thing' until you lose 4 hours worth of work because of an unprompted and unstoppable update. There are very much indeed unprompted upgrades. There's also all of the reverted settings and re-installed applications. I don't want or need 'People' and 'Weather' and 'Xbox' and all the rest. Please leave them off, thank you very much.


There should always be a prompt. There should never be reverted settings or reinstalled applications.

Are you on Insider builds? If so, you should expect more aggressive updates and bugs.


The fact that they decided to make it a default to use your personal bandwidth to serve updates to their other customers shows their attitude. Windows is also 50+GB, which is just ridiculous. No user should have to deal with all the user hostile settings changes cleanup that you have to do.


@lotsofpulp LOL. Windows is not 50GB, the full install ISO supporting all editions is 3.5GB, and installed it takes roughly twice that (varies a bit by edition and optional components you install).

By default it helps conserve bandwidth by downloading updates once and sharing among other machines on your network.


My current Windows installation is 53.6GB, with 29.5GB in a folder called Installer, and 12.9GB in a folder called System32, and 6.1GB in a folder called WinSxS.

I have similarly bloated Windows directories in other computers. It also shouldn't be my problem to Google how to delete defunct Windows system files or whatnot.

Also, the default setting is for Windows to use your bandwidth to share their system files or update files to other windows computers anywhere in the world. Not just your network. So it is in effect, using extra upload bandwidth that you would have otherwise not used. In fact, you have to set your connection to metered for this to be disabled.


This is not an accurate way to measure the size of Windows as most of those folders contain no files, just hard links. There is no reason for you to have to worry about deleting "defunct system files", the OS handles this just fine on its own.

You do not have to set your connection to metered to disable P2P updates, there's a setting just for that, and there's really no reason to disable it in the first place.


As an end user, all I'm interested in is measuring how much of the storage I can use for things other than the operating system. There should be no need for me to touch my Windows folder at any point. Obviously, if I have 50GB+ in Windows, then the OS is NOT handling this just fine on its own.

I disabled sharing my bandwidth because I feel like it was not in good faith of Microsoft to make it a hidden default, and it should have been an explicit opt in to do that. That and the constant nagging for Windows 10, and hidden reinstallations of windows updates that I had uninstalled to prevent the nagging indicate a lack of respect that I don't appreciate as a customer.


Yes, because no other major software company does exactly the same thing these days. Except for all of them.

Default on autoupdates is the proper setting. That we're even debating this in 2016 is kind of crazy.


My XPS 13 9350 came with Windows 10. The trackpad was awful. I installed Ubuntu on it, and the trackpad is great now.


That's very odd, especially as Windows' trackpad support is so very far ahead of what Linux has. That said, scrolling and zooming is dependent on the app... Legacy apps and those which do their own non-native (non-DManip) scrolling aren't going to feel as good. Sadly last I checked Chrome was still pretty bad for touch and trackpad scrolling on Windows, but that's Google'a fault.


I ditched the I2C driver that ships with Windows 10 on my XPS 13 9350 and installed the Synaptics Analog Driver, the difference is night and day.

I still prefer to use Ubuntu (I think it defaults to the Analog driver), but I need Windows sometimes.


This is what i'm planning on. It'll be another ~year or so before i care, but i hope to find a very highend laptop that compares with Apple MacbookPro quality. Great keyboard, touchpad and very high PPI monitor. Then, put linux on it.

This Apple announcement really lost me. Luckily i don't care about the OS (i dislike it, infact), i just want really nice hardware because i use this laptop for ~10h a day.


I have never understood how Synaptics touchpads can suck so bad running on the vendors own drivers but are amazing running on drivers probably reversed engineers by some guy over a weekend in his basement.


Oh, if you can, stick to trackpads without custom drivers ("Precision Touch Pads" in Windows). Surface trackpads all fall into this bucket.


XPS 13 is a MS precision touchpad. I agree with GP, it sucks in Windows. Under Linux it's much better.


Better how? You definitely get way better scrolling and zooming under Windows.


No massive deadzone when moving your finger a small amount, pointer doesn't freeze for ages after a click, it's actually possible to middle click (with 3 fingers). Scrolling is exactly the same as far as I can tell, though you are right that zooming doesn't seem to be supported by any application as far as I can tell. Honestly the accuracy of pointing just feels much better too even when not clicking but that's quite hard to quantify.


Is there a 15" XPS that works with Linux? I'd like a larger display.


> Windows 10 is such a total dumpster fire - privacy nightmare, usability nightmare...

Gee, it's so easy to say things like that without qualifying them at all isn't it?

Here let me try: Android is such a total dumpster fire-privacy nightmare and usability nightmare. I wouldn't use an Android device if they were giving them away!

Hey, at least you can get update for Windows 10 without waiting on any carriers though, lol ;)


1. I've been running a custom ROM on my phone for the past four years. This custom ROM had AppOps before Google's Android, it shields my data from peeking/demanding apps until I allow them, and for apps that don't understand the concept of politely asking me if I would give them my data, this custom ROM fakes it. I keep even Play Services under restrictions.

An update for it is available every night. A stable update comes in every few months. And a security update right after disclosure.

Windows 10 can shout "But ... Android!" all it wants to justify its own shoddy actions, but until the source code to Windows 10 is released, Windows 10 just doesn't have the same grounds for that argument.

----

2. Android isn't a desktop OS. A desktop OS hiding behind an argument like, "But ... [some] people let that mobile OS get away with it! Why can't I do it too!?" ignores the difference between people using computers for leisure and convenience and people using computers for work.

----

TL;DR: 1. At least with Android, you can turn whatever you don't like off. 2. Windows Phone's antics might be an apples to apples comparison against Android, but Windows Desktop isn't.


The surface book trackpad is fantastic, so this doesn't seem like a relevant complaint?


The tracking is okay, but the tactile click action takes far too much force to be comfortable, and the tap detection seems laggy. If I try to Ctrl-click but release Ctrl too quickly, it registers as a normal click instead.

(And in turn I have to Ctrl-click because triple-click = middle-click isn't an option in Windows 10 for some bizarre reason.)


I don't understand why the majority of people are ignoring Microsoft's history and thinking they're turning a corner as a company. Sure they're making some interesting consumer-end products but at the end of the day they're still the same Microsoft that hands over emails and got rid of P2P connections with Skype to help the NSA. This is the same company that's launched a smear campaign against linux in the 90's. Given their track-record people shouldn't trust xbox one's always-listening functionality.

It's just ridiculously clear they don't have the consumer's best interest.


Conspiracy theories don't make good arguments. MS has been one of the most vocal and active in pushing for limits on and public disclosure of government subpoenas for user information.



I think you missed the key points: 1) Skype allegedly did this before MS acquired them. 2) MS never shares any private user data without a legal court order compelling them to. 3) Everything here applied to Apple, Google, and others.

This is also a very old article, and leaves out the fact that since then MS has been shown to be a defender of user privacy and government transparency.


Is this a comment about our current political situation, or are you really talking about computers?


I recently got a Surface Book after many years using a MBP. The Book definitely looks nice, the keyboard is excellent, performance is good, and the reconfigurable touchscreen is handy for doing hand calculations, circuit diagrams, sketching, etc. There are many downsides though: the touchscreen features seen poorly supported, with many apps exhibiting weird scrolling behaviour or other bugs. High DPI support also seems patchy even after much tweaking of Windows settings. Even Windows itself seems to get confused about the touchscreen; the Start menu will occasionally stop responding to mouse clicks, at which point you have to either poke at the screen or reboot.

To be honest, I wish I had stuck with Apple, at least until Microsoft works out the kinks.


'Server Error in '/' Application.

Resource ID : 1. The request limit for the database is 30 and has been reached. See 'http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=267637' for assistance.'

that says it all :) Are you running you site from Surface Book?


It smells of SQL Express.


SQL Azure sounds like.


It is impossible to know just from the fact that it's using SQL...


Nope, it's Azure all right. See -> https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/sql...

The error page points you to this URL.


Ah I see.


Page in error says it's Azure http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=267637


TLDR it's a wash. the guy went with apple because he's got an iphone and an apple watch.


This link already has too much love. Here is the google cache link:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http:/...


Add a cache:// in front of the URL, e.g.:

cache://codeclimber.net.nz/archive/2016/10/28/MacBookPro-vs-Surface-Book.aspx


Does that refer to the HTTP version or the HTTPS version?


Wow, had no idea. How did Google score that protocol?


It's a Google Search feature [0]. Add "cache:" in front of the URL you search on Google to try and view the cached version.

Since most browsers nowadays implement an "omnibar" with Google as the default search provider, it appears seamless and performs the redirect.

[0] https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433?hl=en


Because they also control the browser, only works in chrome


It works in Firefox too, but I guess that's because I have Google set to my default search engine. Good trick.


It works for me in Safari macOS Sierra


I assume it is built into Chrome and is just a redirect.


TL;DR: Chrome is taking a leaf out of PHP's silently-and-confusingly-make-it-work book, and stripping the "//" in "cache://".


Wow, nice. Chrome only, I assume.


Works for me in Safari macOS Sierra. But the default search provider for the address bar is Google.


Nah the problem is the underlying platform. I see a lot of these around

"Server Error in '/' Application.

Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:2.0.50727.6421; ASP.NET Version:2.0.50727.6427 "

LOLOL


Has literally nothing to do with the underlying platform. That's not how web development works.


From here http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=267637 it's just that his tier in Azure is not dimensioned for such load, and Azure blocked it


Yeah, and that Subtext blog service he's using doesn't handle the error very well (and looks like the whole thing is in debug mode).


As disappointed as I am with the latest announcement of the MBP -- I'll likely skip this generation -- the quality of the trackpad and keyboard would be what would convince me to go with the MBP, for now, though I haven't tried it on the new Surface Book.

In the next iteration, next year, it's hard to say what I would choose, because a few big factors could change:

1. So many peripherals go USB-C, or I have enough such dongles, that the MBP's USB-C-only doesn't bother me as much.

2. The Bash shell in Windows is as seamless and well-supported as it is in OSX.

3. Apple adds some unpredictable game-changing feature to its laptop line.

4. Apple finally produces a new external Apple Display.


4. Apple finally produces a new external Apple Display.

They presented a LG monitor during the event saying they partnered with LG to build it and presenting as the perfect monitor companion and ultimate dock for the MBP.

That's not entirely out of character for Apple to backstab its new partner by producing its own competing model, but considering that Apple just got out of that business, that looks unlikely.


Yeah my bad. I only read summaries of the event and didn't catch that nuance about LG being a de facto replacement for Apple's official displays. That's good news.


> Apple finally produces a new external Apple Display

Right after the media event, Apple has stated they're out of external display business.


#4 seems unlikely, since they've moved to working with LG instead. What would you want that LG isn't providing?


Ah, I didn't watch the event but I did hear that LG had a new monitor. I guess I just want the Apple "It just works" guarantee that I can (usually) expect with its first-party products. I've gone through so many third-party monitors that don't quite sync with my MBP (colorspace, sleeping, brightness control, etc). But I guess if Apple is bringing up LG as a partner, then it's reasonable to expect their monitors will work as we'd hope a new Apple Display would.


The new MBP keyboard is shallow like the Air. I tried it the other day at the Apple store and it's not great.


I've got both (older models) and if I had to choose one I'd stick with MBP. You can run MacOS or Windows on it (I'm primarily a Windows user). 15" hi-res screen is more useful for dev work than 13" super-res screen. Touchscreen of SB is more useful than I'd have thought but far from necessary. The detachment mechanism of SB is a bit too slow and clunky to be useful, and you're still stuck carrying a keyboard around (plus Windows doesn't have much going for it in tablet mode). I'd like to see them go toward more of a Lenovo Yoga route with the next release.

That said, I probably use the SB more than the MBP these days, because I mainly use a desktop for dev work, and the SB is smaller and more convenient for non-work tasks around the house. But if I'm working remotely for a long time then the MBP is absolutely the device I'd take with me.


Thought about it some more and realized screen size (at a reasonably high resolution) is really the biggest differentiating factor for me. So if SB had a 15" option I'd never get a MBP unless I needed MacOS. There are certainly some things I'd love to improve in the SB, but for me, screen size aside, it beats the MBP in every other aspect.

I may be an anomaly though. I might even consider a 17" version with a full keyboard and number pad if they offered it. My desktop is quad monitor, two of which are 39" 4K. I just like to have lots and lots of screen space.


Do Mac developers care at all about function keys? When I switched to a Powerbook G4 back in the day, I learned vim key bindings because of the lack of function keys (and page down/up). To address the specific complaint about the ESC key, I've been using CTRL-[ with the CAPS LOCK key mapped to CTRL for as long as I can remember.

Does the typical Mac developer care at all about physical / virtual function keys given their workflow? I would imagine not, but would love to hear about others' experiences here.


When I'm using IntelliJ Idea on Macbook I use function keys very often. Having those on touch bar would mean need to look to ensure that I'm hitting F7 instead of F8 or F9 when Debugging. I'm able to change those shortcuts but I like to use the same shortcuts on OS X and on Ubuntu.


Yes I do and the escape key. I use the escape key all the time to cancel out of modal windows. I also use the function keys quite frequently when using Intellij/Jetbrains products as they have quite a few shortcuts bound to them in the default config.


HN hug of death seems to have thrown it offline. Anyone have a cache?

EDIT: Found one:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eG1Z2o...


This server is in leave-the-crockery-on-the-floor mode, too. Debug mode OFF!

(Although the level of detail could be much worse.)


I'm hoping the Surface Pro 5 vs. MacBook Pro 13" (Late 2016) will be a more interesting comparison next year, but this conclusion seems to say "It's a wash" (he bought MBP, because he's invested in that ecosystem).


OP doesn't account for all the dongles you would have to buy, that could easily come out to about ~$200 per Macbook - which puts the price much closer to the Surface Book's with equivalent ports.


> probably for a developer the touch bar is better.

Each to their own, I guess?


I once got my former employer to get me a Surface Book for a laptop upgrade. It was...okay, nothing to write home about (and bear in mind I worked in a Windows shop). Normally I'd think it's not a close comparison, but at least MSFT didn't get rid of the damn function keys (I know they're still sorta there but come on). The magic touch bar thing still pisses me off.


That's interesting.

I got a surface book several months ago, and it's kept me on windows. I was one more shitty laptop away from jumping ship to a macbook pro and linux desktop, but the surface showed me that a windows laptop doesn't need to be trash. They finally nailed the hardware, and while it had a rocky start (the first month or so was pretty iffy with bluescreens and I did have to return one due to the latch not working right) it's been smooth sailing ever since.

Pretty much all of my complaints about it have to do with windows the OS at this point (the most annoying one being that sleep is still absolute trash compared to macos. I was fucking floored when i closed a macbook once, left it on my desk unplugged for 2 weeks, and when I opened the screen it was right back where i left it within a second with like 40% battery left. Not booting up, not an image of what it was before while it started, literally right where I left it.)


Just FYI the sleep experience should be the same on the Surface Book. If you close and open it should resume immediately. If you close for two weeks and open, it willl have dozed to hibernate and should resume from hibernate in about 5 seconds to exactly where you were, with most of its battery left (hibernate uses no power).


If i have it closed for more than an hour, i need to hit the power button to wake it (opening it won't wake it up). If it's closed for less than an hour, if you hit the power button it re-sleeps the device while it's waking up.

So i need to stare at a black screen for a few seconds to see what it's going to do. (the macbook is literally on by the time it's fully opened)]

But even then I also have problems where the device will restart while it's hibernating or sleeping, or where it will tell me it needs to restart for an update literally minutes after I start it up.

It's a minor thing, but it's one of the examples of where the Apple side of things has prioritized that stuff working more than not, and it's clearly a "checkbox to check off" on the Windows side.

I never felt that it was a problem until I used a macbook. I had assumed that sleep and things like it just sucked with computers. It sucks on linux, it sucks on windows. I figured it just was doomed to suck. But when I started using a macbook every now and then, it blew me away when I could just open the lid, and have the computer there and running instantly every single time.


Resource ID : 1. The request limit for the database is 30 and has been reached. See 'http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=267637' for assistance.


His comparisons on Processing power and pricing are wrong with throws off his conclusion. Waste of time reading that until corrected


Hopefully the new Surface book has a better hinge than the previous one. That screen wobbles so much. That is a no go for me.


I got all warm and fuzzy from this idea: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwC8SNvW8AQgeWN.png:large

Basically, using the touch bar as a context-sensitive test runner. I'm spread across too many different editors and environments it's terribly annoying to try to find a set of keybindings that work in all of them.


Fat finger issues - one of the reasons Bloomberg sells keyboards for the terminal. You will definitely have the same on a touchscreen.


I've compared a load of new laptops on my spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nnmI9pN9rBMBJHE1gqYA...

Compares CPU Passmark score, GPU Flops, Display gamut Rec 2020.

Might be of interest.


Limit of 30 users?! That's pretty small.


the server appears to have crashed, does anyone have a mirror?


That I like: "Server Error in '/' Application.

Resource ID : 1. The request limit for the database is 30 and has been reached. See 'http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=267637' for assistance.

Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.Data.SqlClient.SqlException: Resource ID : 1. The request limit for the database is 30 and has been reached. See 'http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=267637' for assistance."

Website owners should really consider to reassess their application architecture.


It's someone's personal blog with less than one post per month. You can read the blog post here http://feeds.feedburner.com/codeclimber


Thank you, got the cached one. Good comparison.


.NET framework version 2! That's old!




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