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Joel: How Hard Could It Be?: Lessons I Learned in the Army (inc.com)
95 points by luccastera on Feb 28, 2008 | hide | past | favorite | 23 comments



Great read. When managers lose touch with workers, morale suffers.

I would even take it a step further. When managers lose touch with workers, they lose touch with HOW the business operates. They know the WHAT, but not the HOW. I see it over and over. Maybe they forgot how to do it, maybe things have changed, maybe they never even knew. But as soon as a manager tells you HOW to do something and you know he's wrong, time to plan your next move. It's inevitable.


I agree that managers need to stay in touch with workers and the nuts-and-bolts of the business, but I disagreed with some of the examples he used in the article. There is no evidence that the brigadier or the CEO failed because of a quip about sleeping in a limo or picking up the phone at the pool.


As an independently wealthy individual, due to family inheritance and MS stock options, even before starting Fog Creek, I don't think Joel is in much of a position of authority to discuss the average corporate employee's economic perspective.

This article would be far more credible were he not posting on his $10k Sonus home audio system and written by someone who had overcome real economic hardships in life. Fog Creek's first offices were in his grandmother's New York brownstone. Most start-ups in New York can barely afford a closet-sized office.


Are you an independently wealthy individual? If not, why do you feel that you are in a position of authority to discuss the state of knowledge of the average rich person?

Could it be that you, like Joel, are capable of observation and imagination?

And are you asserting that Joel, who has not only worked as an Israeli soldier (did you read the essay?) and a baker's assistant, but has also spent time as an average, corporate Microsoft employee, is somehow ineligible to discuss his own former perspective? Or are you suggesting that Joel somehow got special treatment at Microsoft because his grandma had money? I'm sure Bill Gates was really impressed by that.

If you think Joel is wrong, give us some arguments. Spare us the ad hominem attacks.


To his credit and as a former grunt myself, you won't survive in any army with an attitude of being the "rich kid" for longer than 30 seconds. (Although the Israeli army is conscripted, so it could be different.)

Being an infantry soldier is just about one of the toughest and bottom of the barrel jobs on the planet. Anyone who serves - in my mind - is automatically given the right to speak from the school of hard knocks.


Perhaps he wrote this as a reminder to himself? Perhaps he had a problem like this at Fog Creek and wanted to share the lesson he learned? Perhaps the editors thought the readers of Inc Magazine would appreciate this?

Plus, he tries to limit hours/wk to 40, gives 6 weeks of vacation, free catered lunches, etc. He's hardly asking his employees to work like founders.


I find it amazing that he still takes the subway, apparently.


Why? In New York, and most livable cities it's often the best way to get around... faster, no parking hassles, no traffic, etc etc.


I thought the rich investment banker people had cars. Like, I read an article about a new BMW dealership strategically placed near Wall Street.


Thanks bonsaitree, we need a reality check once in a while.


Jealous?


Actually, I'm a big fan. There's no denying his personal work ethic, leadership, and marketing skills. Several of our clients actually use FogBuzz. If all it took was money, everyone could be just as successful.

Anyone remember Magnet Interactive? It was a consulting shrink-wrap product start-up bootstrapped by blue-bloods which was started post dot-com-crash. It died a quick death.

Joel and his partner built Fog Creek into a success post-dot-com bust and switched business models from consulting to products on-the-fly. They also do a great deal with a very small staff. Analogies to Craigslist come to mind. There's a lot to admire.

It's just a poor subject and analogy choice for Joel. I got the same feeling recently when reading an article on how to "fix" America's public school system--written by Jack (ex GE-CEO) and Suzi Welch. Mr. Welch may know "leadership" and how to run a large business conglomerate, but he has zero "line" experience with the day-to-day challenges of teachers in the modern classroom.

Unfortunately, there's no way to avoid some ad hominem in my refutation since the article's thesis is itself purportedly supported by ad hominem experiences. The article quotes specific examples from Joel's conscripted Isreali Army experience. My comments include examples provided by Joel himself on his personal website and essays on building Fog Creek over the years.


Excellent piece. He could not be more right.

I think there is more in that story than was argued. The equity structure in startups, in my opinion, could see a change similar to what is happening to venture financing.

Here is the current problem: if you hire an employee, and give him .1% of the company, what happens if that employee's actions significantly increase the value of the company? Maybe this person makes a key innovation that pushes the product over the chasm. That .1% looks like an unfair reward. In general, the greater the contribution, the worse the equity allocation becomes.

My guess is that market forces will find a way to solve this problem. Companies that can give employees variable equity based on contribution will find it easier to attract top talent. Legally, I have no idea how this would work, but the market forces are there nonetheless.


Make them sub-contractors? (And if they do not like the risk you can offer to cap the down-side (as well as the up-side).)


A personal pet peeve: I can't stand it when the bosses bring outside people around, give them a tour, point at you, explain what you do, and never once mention 1) that there would be visitors, or 2) who the heck they are. It's degrading.


How hard can it be? Surprisingly not that much. My time in the Marine Corps was similar. Training-wise it's all pre-planned by officers for staff NCOs to execute but when push comes to shove all that gets thrown out of the window at a minute's notice. Because of the escalation of the war in Iraq our training schedule was "lost" and we began an accelerated infantry course whereby all weekends were taken out, humps amped up, and classes extended.

What's always been amazing to me has been the ability for people to adapt. The weak ones weeded out from boot camp end up in infantry training capable of handling quite a lot of stress and workload. You'll _feel_ tired but when the entire platoon has been asked to practice drills for another hour you simply push through and do it.

When boots are on the ground, however, it's not so similar. There's so much downtime in between missions. And in time that's when accidents happen and people get careless. Maintaining discipline and order has paramount and that's when the hours and days of reflex drilling snap to and you stay alive for yet another day.


I think the important lesson here is the sense of ownership, whether emotional (passionate) and/or financial (founder), that someone who works at a (usually startup) company feels. If you're not invested in something, what do you care about making things better or the symbolic act of saving some of the startup funds by traveling on the cheap?


What is the legal status of serving in a foreign army?

At any rate, if you read accounts of the various wars Israel has been in, one of the deciding factors has always been the sloppy preparation on the Arabs' side.


Outside of taking up arms against the United States, you can pretty much do whatever you please.

http://www.uscitizenship.info/en_US/faq/citizenship/ans/g60....


People are focusing on citizenship, which is not the issue. The Selective Service board may have something to say on the matter, for instance.


One, they draft in Israel and many, with dual American-Israeli citizenship, go back to serve.

And considering America sends them 2 billion each year, plus all the tax revenues they have, they have more than enough to invest in advanced military tech.


Yeah... Israel has it worked out such that they draft in such a way as to not violate US citizenship.


Congress tried to make serving in a foreign military cause you to loose your citizenship, but that was struck down by the supreme court. The actual case where it was struck down involved a guy with dual US/Israeli citizenship voting in Israel, but the law that was struck down was the same one that tried to punish serving in a foreign military.

Now, keep in mind that it might still be illegal (with most likely an exception written in for Israel), but at least you won't loose your citizenship for it.




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