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Why writing software is not like engineering (usfca.edu)
91 points by nishantmodak 2741 days ago | hide | past | web | 72 comments | favorite

IMHO, writing software is actually an excellent example of an engineering task. The reason we see all these failures in software development is, in fact, that most software developers are NOT engineers. This is where all this pain comes from.

The role of engineering is to apply a theoretical model/representation of a physical fact, in order to achieve a desired result. The role of science is to provide these models with maximum accuracy.

The better a model is (equations, empirical laws...), and the better the engineer masters this model, the more accurate will be the expected results.

Programming languages, frameworks and patterns are scientific models, designed to represent the working of a computer. Bugs and unexpected behaviors in a program are due to a bad application of these models. If you know exactly what you are doing (i.e. you have a deep understanding/knowledge of these models), there is no reason for you to observe some unexpected failures. The more experience you have, the better you understand these models, and the more productive you are.

Of course this is just theory: in practice, things are getting quickly complicated and it is humanly impossible to predict everything that will happen - that's why testing exists. But my opinion is one would see much less failures in software development if developers were actually experienced engineers. Many developers today have no idea what they are doing, essentially because they are juniors and inexperienced. Unlike engineers, they are not trained to mentally play with the theoretical tools they use, so they cannot predict the results. And yes, at this point software development becomes more an art than an engineering task. It's like juggling without being able to predict the trajectory of the balls.

I think the difference is that software is engineering that isn't treated like engineering. For example, if a new bridge is going to be built, years and years are spent building models, testing winds, and understanding the geography of the location. Models are tested in wind tunnels. Dampers are added for earthquakes that may or may not occur. Every truckload of concrete is tested. Metals are designed for exact specifications.

When software is built, the first prototype becomes the production version. People don't think about the future. Algorithms aren't chosen they are hacked together by someone who may or may not understand the system from beginning to end.

The problem with software, most times, is precisely that it is not treated as engineering. We build software to be thrown away. We don't build it to last. This article from Dan Bricklin changed my perspective on software.


He argues that we should treat software more like engineering projects and design and build it to last.

Furthermore, we require civil engineers building bridges to have degrees in civil engineering. For software, anyone can create it. People who never went to college even. But you'd never allow someone with only a history degree to design a skyscraper. We've become accustomed to software written by people who are not engineers. We don't spend the same kind of money on it and the users of it don't really care, because unlike a bridge, their lives don't depend on it not crashing.

If we treated programming like engineering we would finish one project every twenty years or so, and proceed to work on the next for the next twenty years.

There's simply no such counterpart in physical engineering to the iterative programming process. Engineers know how to build a bridge, that's why a particular design succeeds and is then followed by construction properly carried out. Programmers face unknown and unsolved problems all the time; in fact, a solved problem is not worth the programmer's time. A solved problem has already been implemented several times and can be reused, either literally or conceptually.

Engineers have been trying to solve the problem of a practical electric car with acceleration, velocity, range, and reload time comparable to petrol engines for decades. New things take time.

The reason we can write complex software in a few years instead of decades is that in software world, luckily, the cost of building, compiling, and trashing a prototype is negligible. Conversely, the complexity of projects has been upped a corresponding notch but only to the extent that we can still actually finish some projects.

Actually as someone with degrees and experience in both fields, you face unknowns FAR more often in the physical world than the software world. Man if only I had a step debugger and some logs for that turbine that just exploded.

There are a lot of reasons for the difference in disciplines but saying that software is "unknown and unsolved" is pretty far off the mark.

If what you say is true, we'd have electronic voting. Why don't we have that?

Physical engineers face unknowns all the time. Building in unknown environments for example. New materials. Climate change. I can't even count the number of different designs for bridges, buildings, and cranes.

Yes, but at least you know you're building a bridge. Instead of, say, developing a game and discovering your users want a photo sharing site instead (flickr). That's an extreme example, but it's very rare to build software that doesn't deviate significantly from what is initially specified. You could never engineer in those conditions.

And once you build your bridge, you're finished. It just has to stand there and take the load. It doesn't have to be unpredictably changed over the course of it's lifetime to also function as an airstrip and shopping mall.

Even the simplest of real-world software products you typically need to grow and adapt - sometimes dramatically - over time.

We DO have that- don't mistake America for the world.

"Engineers know how to build a bridge"

Even then it can still take them a few tries to get it right:


"There's simply no such counterpart in physical engineering to the iterative programming process."

Not true! There are so-called handbook engineering problems -- change the ratios in this gear box -- that can be solved by a monkey with a textbook.

However design-from-scratch hardware engineering usually involves a great deal of iteration. The first phase of designing a new chemical or fluid system is a mini-research project to measure the performance curves of various possibilities under a wide range of conditions, and if none of them are good enough it turns into a blue-sky science project. Radio electronics projects commonly start out as a pile of tiny two-layer circuit boards, one for each subsystem, so they can be cheaply iterated in parallel, instead of having to repeatedly redo a single massive board. ("We have to spin (redo) the system board" not being a happy phrase to a project lead.)

In all the sensor and detector projects I worked on, the embedded real-time firmware was always the bright spot that was practically guaranteed to work.

Don't even get me started about designing research hardware for scientists ...

"We should treat software more like engineering projects and design and build it to last."

No, we shouldn't. If you build a bridge to last 200 years, it will remain unchanged for 200 years.

What piece of software can you possibly imagine still be useful if it remains unchanged for 200 years? 50? 10? Hell, can you name a piece of software that was last updated 5 years ago that you still find useful?

Most software becomes obsolete by the changing digital landscape within a year or two if it isn't updated to keep up with the times. That's a major difference compared to physical objects - the physical landscape doesn't change nearly as frequently. That said, we still don't build most physical objects to last 200 years except for the very largest of a projects - and we frequently demo small buidings to put up high rises as the city landscape changes.

Hell, can you name a piece of software that was last updated 5 years ago that you still find useful?

Yes, tons. For example, the firmware for my car's electronic fuel injection (EFI). A lot of software can't easily be updated, or lasts far longer than originally intended.

Treating software development as solely an engineering discipline is, in my opinion, a mistake. That being said, the vast majority of software projects today would benefit greatly from that approach.

Why was this downvoted?

Because of your obvious lack of knowledge about "real world" engineering. Think of the planning that goes into just simply replacing the guardrail on a bridge. How are you going to cut it off, replace it, and install a new one on a changing bridge while least affecting traffic? In the case of the bridge I drive over every day the answer was to remove each ~100'x100' section of road deck (there is one in each direction) and replace it in its entirety, one a night, for months. This was to widen the 5 lane bridge by about 3' and raise the guardrail by about a foot. Sure a "minor" revision but I guarantee you could have paid for Flickr and a pile of VC backed startups making a hundred different projects for the cost of having a crews of guys working for months, a barge crane, and thousands of tons of steel and concrete. It just isn't even comparable. Specs changing are a constant fact of life in real world engineering too, they just aren't the #1 issue that has to be dealt with.

I think you're illustrating my point perfectly. An absolutely minor change to replace a guardrail is more expensive "than Flickr and a pile of VC backed startups making a hundred different projects".

Engineering projects do not change frequently and radically. They can't afford to - but more importantly - they don't need to, certainly not at anywhere the pace of software.

A bridge may undergo some changes and facelifts over a 200-year period, but it's still basically the same bridge. But there isn't much software that could last even a fraction that long and not be completely obsolete (without most of it's code getting replaced). In the case of a bridge, the underlying geography isn't going anywhere. That's just not the case with software - even if the platform still exists, the rapid pace of technology means that the software will stop being of any practical use.

A piece of software needs to keep evolving, or it's dead. The same just isn't true of most 200-year engineering projects.

I've waxed eloquent about this on HN before, but some subfields of software development is rather treated like engineering (and, I would dare say, qualifies as engineering).

I work on avionics software. There is a lot of planning. There are formal requirements based on industry standards and the needs of the users. There are oodles of verification procedures to ensure that the software written does what the requirements demand. There are peer reviews. There is certification paperwork. There are quality audits on the requirements, the code, the verification, the reviews, and the certification paperwork. There are on-ground tests. There are flight tests.

We do require the "engineers" to have relevant degrees, and if our software crashes... well, hopefully nobody dies, but, it's a real and sobering possibility.

On the other hand, all of the engineering-esque work that goes into avionics would likely be utterly wasted on most web applications, iPhone programs, and video games.

> If you know exactly what you are doing (i.e. you have a

> deep understanding/knowledge of these models), there is

> no reason for you to observe some unexpected failures.

It's not bugs that doom projects, it's misunderstandings.

Most software fails because it doesn't meet it's users' requirements. Because there's so many possible ways to write a program, and it's impossible to get an upfront specification that captures all of the needed detail, we end up building things that aren't fit for their intended use.

This is a big difference between us and other engineers. In most cases their requirements are well-understood by both the builders and the users. Build a bridge from X to Y that can carry 20,000 cars an hour, that will withstand a 9.0 earthquake, etc. That's why the models are so key, their job is figuring out how to make objects to meet those requirements.

Software's advances come through either better methods of capturing requirements, eg agile programming, together with better tools that make it easier to prototype and iterate on a product to figure out what users really want.

> In most cases their requirements are well-understood by both the builders and the users.

Software has the luxury of the ability to have rapid change in the hands of users. Web startups are a good example. Even desktop software is a good example. Generally you don't want to apply a strong engineering model to them because the engineering process is costly in time and people. Software on a submarine or for the disk brakes on a car is not a good example because the rapid change can't be cheaply and transparently pushed to the users. Those systems require engineering.

For material products, show me examples where one does not HAVE to get upfront specifications. How would you release early and iterate on an MP3 player or a stove or shoes? The exceptions I can think of are food and landscaping.

Systems (material and software) are engineered because they HAVE to be engineered, not because engineering is inherent in material products and absent in software products. If the system does not require engineering (for safety, cost, risk) then it doesn't look like a good candidate for engineering. Do you engineer your dinner? I don't but NASA does for their astronauts.

"they are not trained to mentally play with the theoretical tools they use"

That's because the actual theoretical tools that are in place from computer science are generally not practically applicable to 99.9% of the work that most developers do.

A knowledge of lambda calculus, CSP, Turing Machines etc. etc. is of no relevance whatsoever to someone building a CRUD business application or (for that matter) another client for Twitter. Formal abstractions from other fields aren't of much use because the mathematical techniques used for modeling the "real world" don't apply too well to programs.

"Programming languages, frameworks and patterns are scientific models, designed to represent the working of a computer"

That an interesting idea - but as far as I can see, completely wrong. Scientific models are created (usually using maths, but not always) to provide logical structures that have predictive and explanatory powers - and have to be consistent with observed behavior and have be falsifiable.

Programs aren't constructed to explain observed behavior of computers or to predict what computers will do - they are created to control (through layers of abstraction and translation) what the devices will actually do. So I don't think "scientific model" is the right phrase to use.

"A knowledge of lambda calculus, CSP, Turing Machines etc. etc. is of no relevance whatsoever to someone building a CRUD business application or (for that matter) another client for Twitter."

Fair enough. These are used as scientific materials for scientific purposes, and are indeed not suitable for an engineer's work. However languages and frameworks are abstractions (= models) of how a computer works and engineers do use them to control it and get the ordered results.

Think of a computer as a black box. You want to get some output from it (calculation results, commands, whatever). You need to know what input you must give them in order to produce the expected output. This is were programming languages and frameworks come in. They offer an abstraction of the working of the computer that you can use. Programs are indeed not constructed to explain how a computer works because they are the input, not the system itself. They are the input a developer needs to provide to the computer in order to have the requested result.

How does a developer know what input to give (i.e. what code to write)? He has to understand how the system works, or rather, how the abstraction layer/framework he's using works. If his knowledge is not perfect, he might observe some unexpected results. He then needs to investigate what part of the framework he did not understand, and adapt his program consequently.

This is what all engineers do. They manipulate a system using an abstract representation of it, they gain experience by figuring out how or why the output they receive is not what they expected and by iteratively adjusting their understanding of the system.

Since all engineers do this, why would developers do things differently? Engineers learn to manipulate abstract models (in a lot of different domains), and IMHO many developers fail because they lack such training.

> Since all engineers do this, why would developers do things differently?

Because, as arethuza said, programmers don't have the tools that other engineering disciplines have. Most notably, the equations that allow for predictive analysis and proofs of correctness.

A civil engineer that builds a bridge can be fairly certain it won't fall down even when it's still on paper, because he can reason about the forces and stresses and even environmental degradation via well known equations and models. This collection of predictive and proof techniques is what makes it an engineering discipline.

Programming doesn't have that, at least not yet. As you point out, the program is the input to the machine, not the predictive model. But at least if the machine acts deterministically, we can focus on proving things about its input, the program. There has been quite a bit of effort in the research community to come up with ways to prove correctness, but the state of the art is still a long ways from being something actually useful. Functional languages are (partially) a reaction to the prediction requirement. By not having side effects or depending on state, it's easier to make predictions about behavior. (Of course, lazy evaluation buys you a lot in expressive power and data structure efficiency, but offers a new hurdle in predicting performance).

And if you really look at it, Software Engineering is, well, not. Everything I have seen in the emerging Software Engineering field is really about managing people. It's about how to get 1000 developers on the same page (which is like herding cats) so they can crank out an operating system. Sure, there is a lot about testing and validation and change control, but it's still mostly from the angle of controlling the risk of a developer doing something stupid. The tools that would allow a software architect to write an exact specification of a project (bridge blueprints), prove it'll meet all requirements (not fall down), then turn it over to junior programmers (construction crew), just don't exist yet. Check out Rosetta for an ongoing attempt.

So maybe someday programming truly will be an engineering discipline, but right now it's more like having a million Wright brothers all building their own airplane, using whatever materials they are used to working with, rather than an established discipline like Aeronautical Engineering.

"And if you really look at it, Software Engineering is, well, not."

Well said!

Your understanding of software development is limited.

Most real-world software projects aren't the kind of straightforward batch processing jobs you might have done in the mandatory entry-level college programming class that they make engineers take.

They aren't about trying to figure out the input (code) to get the 'expected output' you want.

They are about dealing with user interaction, and users - messy and unpredictable. It's not merely a matter of looking at the possible 'inputs' a user can take and trying to explore all the possible stateful interactions; if the software doesn't do what the user actually needs, or if he can't figure out HOW to make it do what he wants, it's a failure. Figuring that out is called design, and there's no way to 'engineer' that.

And physical engineers don't have users with even more complicated interface problems? Most computer systems are not real time. Airplanes, cars, factory processes, cranes, power plants, even chairs have an interface with users that is more complicated to design.

The people who make chairs aren't engineers. They're designers. Industrial Designers.

The people who 'design' the look and user interface of the car? Automotive Designers. Not automotive engineers.

The people who 'design' buildings are architects. They work with engineers to make sure the buildings 'work'.

Software is most akin to architecture, except the role of 'designer' and 'engineer' is rolled into one. There's only a portion of the the development process that you can actually apply engineering principles to.

I disagree with what you are saying. For each item you mentioned that is irrelevant, the same is true in electrical engineering or mechanical engineering. It should be obvious why a Turing machine isn't relevant to modern programming. It should also be obvious why Einstein's models of the universe aren't relevant to automotive engineering.

There are many computer science principles that are relevant to even a CRUD business application, encryption, hashing, caching, parameterization, abstraction, design patterns, and more are all applicable to problems for those kinds of applications -- they're just rarely used.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning that there aren't useful things in CS (I'm a CS graduate myself). What I meant was that the techniques for formally modeling software so that you can reason about it aren't as well developed as they are for normal engineering subjects.

Which normal engineering concepts are you saying are more formal than in CS? I had to take a "Formal Methods" course in college. Gears are loops. Switches are switches. If statements are transistors.

Also recognize that CS is a much newer science than physics. Some of what you are saying may be due to the immaturity of the science, but it doesn't mean that it isn't engineering.

I took a lot of other engineering courses including statics and dynamics, thermodynamics, electronics and courses for premed requirements and I don't see a lot of difference between computer science/engineering and biomedical engineering or civil engineering except our perception of of the physical engineering as more important -- due only to their visibility.

CS/CSE is hidden from view. People don't understand where while loops are operating, but they can see gears spinning and cables holding up bridges.

Compare typical software projects to medical software products as a niche. Much more design, time, and money is spent there than on Web 2.0 sites because lives depend on it.

I phrased that incorrectly - the techniques are all there in CS, but if anything they are too formal. It's the practical benefits of applying formal methods that are missing from general development (usually for good reasons).

A while ago I had an argument with a chemical engineer about exactly this. He claimed that software engineering is an immature field and that we will eventually learn how to apply engineering principles to get more reliable programs.

When I countered that you mostly don't even know what you're modelling and that the design state space is much larger in software, he retorted that all sorts of things can go wrong with just a single pipe in a chemical plant but that it doesn't stop reliable plants from being built.

But he didn't get it: that pipe is a component in a well understood framework. It's nothing like the unexpected things you get in software. The software equivalent is that of a buggy component whose specification is well understood - if you rewrite the component, you'll get what you expect. In software, proper specification is the rub.

I have worked with many electrical and electronic engineers (I studied CS) and not one of those engineers was on average better at writing reliable software. They did try hard to specify their systems in advance, but the actual systems soon started diverging from their specifications.

I grant that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it is equally wrong to keep maintaining in full faith (and without convincing evidence) that software development is an engineering discipline.

I have never seen anyone argue convincingly for nor against the engineering approach in software. If anyone has done a study on this, I would love to read it.

By your own definition, software clearly isn't engineering. Most programming languages aren't representations of a computer at all - in fact, one can argue that programming languages have become more powerful the more they've distanced themselves from the underlying working of the computer.

But it's the "in order to achieve a desired result" that your argument really falls down. Engineering works because the end result can be clearly specified - that's almost never the case for software. The goal of most software is to make the users happy. And there's no way you can engineer happiness. Instead, you're faced with a design problem - and design is by it's very nature is iterative.

As software development has gotten more iterative, it's also actually gotten more effective. In fact, it seems like the more we embrace that software ISN'T engineering, the better off we are.

I disagree with this guy, every point he makes is flawed:

> Engineering components exist in the real world

Yes, and computers don't exist in some alternate dimension. People might forget it sometimes, but if you're a real engineer, you should know how a computer works, and know it's not magic, it's physics that make you're computer work. Software is merely an abstraction. Secondly, math is also engineering, but you can't touch it, can you?

> Engineering components interact in more predictable ways

No, wrong again. Software is perfectly predictable (BTW, if you want, you could build a mathematical model of every program. 100% predictable). If you make mistakes in other engineering branches you can get some strange results too.

> Engineering has fewer fundamental midcourse design changes

I don't see the link between engineering and design changes here. Are you trying to say that no single engineering project changes during it's life? Just look at prototypes of cars, those changes are quite massive. Secondly, ask yourself this question: How much does it cost to change a rocket design midway compared to a software program?

> Is software development a science?

Well, that's the point, in my opinion it's engineering.

> Writing software is more an art than an engineering discipline

Some think so, but really, it should be seen as engineering. Why? Artists make choices related to what they like, how they feel. Engineers make objective choices (or at least they should, nobody is perfect).

Rant finished!

I agree with D. Knuth here: software is an "art", but rather like in "artisan" not in "artist". In this context "art" means something that has some good established practices but is not yet science.

Full article here: http://www.paulgraham.com/knuth.html

This is a discussion about meaning of words, so appeal to authority finishes the argument :)

Hmm, good point, there is quite a difference. But still, I think most software problems wouldn't exist if there were more engineers (=theoretical knowledge) than artisans (=practical knowledge). But that's another discussion.

"(BTW, if you want, you could build a mathematical model of every program. 100% predictable)"

No, you can't - and provably so. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem)

Even in the real world, you have user interaction - and their usage of your software isn't predictable, even if your code mostly is. Your codebase might be totally rock-solid, but users have a way of rapidly demonstrating that your assumptions were totally off-base.

There is some art, and some engineering, but the essence of programming is design. Every decision has costs and benefits. Design decisions aren't right or wrong in the abstract, you're simply trading off one thing for another - (Memory vs. CPU, CAP, etc).

The key is figuring out which benefits and which costs are most suitable for what you're developing - or more accurately, how the software will actually be used (not necessarily the same thing).

> BTW, if you want, you could build a mathematical model of every program. 100% predictable

Have you ever tried to do this? Once you get past fibonacci functions, the amount of time and effort required is measured in PhD-man-years. And even then, all you have done is moved the risk from the code to the proof, because when you work on something that large, the risk that the model does not represent reality (either due to oversight, lack of understanding, or not correctly capturing the interplay between two aspects) becomes an issue.

True, but my point was that it's a bit stupid to say that software development wasn't engineering because it's not predictable. The problem isn't that it isn't predictable, but it's just so complex that errors are made, just like in any engineering project.

But my point was that the complexity matters. If you throw complexity out the window, everything in the Universe is probably 100% predictable (unless you presume a deity with a sense of humor, or some other layer of non-determinism).

The issue is that the state space for software is so much larger than the state space for bridge building that we just don't have the tools to effectively model and predict yet. I won't argue that software is somehow an art, because I'm hopeful that someday we will have those tools, but I will argue that it's not engineering yet. The Alan Kay quote about pyramids in the article hit it spot on. We are still piling blocks on each other and hoping it works at this point.

Don't forget:

>String theory, the most promising method of modeling quantum physics

Still a bit controversial to make that claim, isn't it?

Algorithms are science and math. Programming is a craft. Programming in teams is communication and human relations. Making software that's easy and fun to use is psychology and arts. Selling that software is business and marketing.

It's the mix of all this that makes software development so challenging and fun.

Theory is science and math. Engineering is a craft. Engineering in teams is communication and human relations. Making artifacts that's easy and fun to use is psychology and arts. Selling that artifacts is business and marketing.

It's the mix of all this that makes engineering development so challenging and (potentially) fun.

Well, engineering is not like engineering. You can't paint all "engineering" and all "engineers" with the same brush: we're not all alike.

I've designed (physical) devices where the customer needed the end product ready in a few days, and others where it took months. Sound anything like software?

Software engineering is simply the process of using known concepts to build a software product. That's no different from "traditional" engineering. Just as you apply a different approach to a 3-page website versus an enterprise inventory app that must failover smoothly between 5 servers, a mechanical engineer will apply a different approach to designing a pickup truck versus a "Little Tykes" car.

The reason programs don't look like they're engineered isn't because we don't know how to (I'd like to think my software engineering degree counts for something), it's because we usually don't bother.

Does it really matter what you call it?

At the university I attended, the Computer Science program shifted from the Engineering department to the Science & Mathematics department during the course of my studies. Incoming freshmen were still handed copies of SICP and Introduction to Algorithms at the door.

The vast majority of college degree programs don't teach the core skills necessary for success in the field, regardless of naming, but that's a different problem.

Nevertheless, naming has a powerful influence on understanding. If people think that software development is a science, they'll treat it that way, similarly, how they treat it will change if they think it's an engineering discipline or an artistic effort.

I've come around to the idea that software development is partly engineering and partly creative, much like architecture. Treating it like a science is the surest recipe for failure, as you'll be lucky if you ship anything worthwhile on schedule. Treating it like engineering will result in a much higher rate of success, with higher quality, and greater scheduling certainty, but will frequently result in mediocrity and developer dissatisfaction. Treating it like pure art sans engineering will probably result in lower quality, and unpredictable scheduling. But giving proper respect to the importance of both sound engineering and creativity seems like the sweet spot to me.

What we call things shapes our preconceptions about how they work. But I agree, it's not very important what we call it. We have to go beyond preconceptions anyway.

Another factor: Many software projects are research projects, i.e. new technology development, because they try to do something new, whether on a technical level or on a user interface development level.

It is fairly common for new technology development to cost vast sums of money while yielding nothing practical. Importantly, when developing new technologies, people understand that something may or may not come out of it, and they accept that (somewhat).

The other factors are definitely an issue too, though:

- Lack of physicality of the output

- Increased likelihood of unintended interactions between components

- Clients changing their mind halfway through (!)

Computer Science in most schools is mainly mathematics and a couple of programming courses thrown in. To become a working programmer however is a craft that you learn and become better at through experience. The education that you get from Computer Science is similar to that you get from say political science. From political science you usually go to law school to learn something more concrete. Computer Science doesn't have a law school equivalent where you go to learn software development, usually you have to learn on your own. Depending on the type of software development work you do, you can find your Computer Science education quite useful. Basically any math heavy subject is a fine prerequisite education for software development craftsmanship.

That's not specific to Computer Science.

My Mechanical Engineering degree spit me out with just enough knowledge that I could go learn how to be a Mechanical Engineer. None of the things I did on a daily basis over the next year were things I learned in school, but I was able to figure them out because of the things I learned.

That's the unspoken purpose of school (at least in the Engineering areas). Your degree doesn't teach you to do any specific job. It's a 4-5 year conditioning course for your brain. It weeds out people who won't be successful in a certain area, and rewires everybody else so that they can "think like and Engineer".

So if you're complaining that School didn't teach you to write CRUD apps in Java, you're complaining about the wrong thing.

That wasn't true in my school. While there were lots of math classes to take, there were far more computer science classes required for a BS in CS and more electrical engineering and physics classes required for a BSe in Computer Engineering. Six or 7 math classes total, vs 12-15 computer classes

A couple of questions that come to mind:

1.Is “Computer Science” the same term as “Software Engineering”? 2.Is developing specific applications for clients that ordered them Computer Science? 3.What about the cases when someone writes software for experiments and research in a specific field of science (for example biology)? 4.Is developing large enterprise systems part of the same field as is writing software that controls robots or for example software for optimization based on biological phenomena?

What do you think?

1. No: The goal of Computer Science is to provide and improve methods, languages and frameworks to manipulate a computer. The goal of Software Engineering is to apply these tools in order to achieve a requested result with a computer.

2. No, that's the purpose of Engineering. (Science creates models, Engineering applies them)

3. This is engineering for scientific purposes :)

4. This is still engineering, applying different models.

I prefer the title Developer to Engineer because it conveys the iterative work that is a large element of writing most software.

I always just assumed 'engineer' was an Americanization of the word 'programmer'/'developer'. Maybe that's just my British perspective. It's also down to my belief in some of the principles in the OP. I'd never heard 'software engineer' used outside of an academic discipline, until I got in to startups and listened to lots of US tech podcasts and read lots of US tech blogs.

> I always just assumed 'engineer' was an Americanization of the word 'programmer'/'developer'.

It often is exactly that. I'm probably being too pedantic, but as a developer I don't allow myself to be called an engineer, though some companies have wanted me to. I'm not one, I don't have an engineering degree nor certification and I feel it cheapens the Engineering profession to allow that.

I guess I could be called a "scientist" since I do have a CS degree, but that just feels weird.

It implies a degree of rigour that I certainly don't have. I'm conscious of being just a punkass with an inflated job title.

Indeed. I do have an engineering degree and the certifications that follow, and I don't describe my day to day work as Engineering.

I'm a guy who programs computers and runs a little software business. No need to go adding silly titles to that (and if I did, I'd probably go with CEO anyway, since it's quicker to write.)

He's not talking about titles. Even in countries where programmers aren't called "engineers" there's a discipline called "Software Engineering".

I disagree with points of this article, and I'm not sure about the premise. I think Software Engineering is not as well defined as it could be but I think it is getting better. The book Rapid Development by Steve McConnel goes a long way in that regard.

The article states that to spend vast sums of money and end up with nothing, you must be paying for software development. But if you follow the principles laid out in Steve's book (and probably other software engineering books as well), you can't end up with nothing; at every milestone you have something, just like a building.

I also disagree that software either works or doesn't. Most software problems are bugs, and most of the ones that make it through testing are intermittent, seemingly randomly occuring problems. Software with bugs still works, but may not be high enough quality that you would want to use it, similar to how you wouldn't want to live in a house made of shoddy materials, even though it still mostly provides shelter and "works."

> at every milestone you have something, just like a building.

What? When you're building a building, you don't have something usable at each milestone.

Of course there are milestones (that leaves you something usable) in construction!

* Construction start

* Foundation completed

* Structure/Frame completed

* Roofing completed

* Interior Walls

etc etc etc.. I'm not in the construction business, but anyone with even the smallest experience (like putting up a deck) can tell you what critical milestones need to be completed. You can't start the roofing without the supporting foundation and structure completed -- nor can you put up deck railings without the actual deck floor in place.

The cool thing about software is that the order should reflect uncertainties and risks rather than physical structure. The incomplete parts can be stubs.

That's exactly what I (and the author of the article we're discussing) meant, I find it surprising that there is any confusion on this point.

Terence Parr (the author) is "the maniac behind ANTLR": http://www.antlr.org/

A tangential issue is the broken metaphor of "coding as construction", which is discussed in a classic essay by Jack Reeves: http://www.developerdotstar.com/mag/articles/reeves_design_m...

Software is an art because the tools, components, and abstractions are so incomplete, and so numerous, that it becomes impossible to calculate what will happen without trial and error.

The difference between engineering physical things and software is that in "regular engineering" the bulk of the decisions are made in the design phase. You might have issues that crop up during implementation but largely they are small in scope and can be resolved. In "software engineering" your design phase is short and the implementation phase is really long. Design decisions are happening during the coding part.

It doesn't have to be this way. If there were the equivalent of CAE tools for software design where you could easily manipulate modules and the interfaces between them maybe it would happen. (And no, the IDEs today are not there yet).

We need more standard high level reusable components that all the people on the team know. When I need something bolted together or need a simple motor, I've got a bunch of suppliers to handle that. Java and Python and others have these great comprehensive software libraries now, but they only go up to a certain level. I feel like so many software projects are just duplicating the same stuff over and over (exactly what RoR aims to solve in one domain which is why it is so popular). People have been saying this for 30 years now, but people were saying it in mechanical engineering for about 100 before it came to pass so I'm not surprised it will take a long time.

There is also the difference of modeling. When I'm designing something in the physical world I have a bunch of knowledge to apply to the problem. It's not as easy as people are making it out to be (bridges are not exactly trivial problems, especially when compared to 99% of the software written out there. Don't even get me started on what I work on) but there are guides. When I'm deciding what material to use for a part I have a bunch of information about the problem, a bunch of information about the available materials, and there will be some decision making process trading off several factors (cost, corrosion resistance, weight, strength, fatigue etc) and an informed choice is made. When I want to choose between Ruby on Rails and Django, I have a bunch of blog opinions. I can't model out the performance difference between using C++ or Java for a robotics framework. I can't predict what this algorithmn will do to my real time performance. You have to actually DO IT, and then measure it. Sometimes we have this in mech eng. too and we make physical models and test them on a small scale, that CAN happen in software engineering but rarely does it.

So 2 bit take away: the design phase in software engineering could be a lot more like "engineering".

Certainly no one here is trying to make it sound like undertaking a massive engineering effort (like building a bridge) is easy. It's damn hard, and harder than most software projects - and it takes a lot more time and people.

But people do build 'models' on a small scale when doing development. They're called 'prototypes'. Except in this case, they're usually to prototype the functionality, to collect feedback from the users, and not to test the 'engineering' suitability of a given library or framework for the final product. Why? Because satisfying the engineering constraints is not the hardest problem - nor the most important one - and not by a long shot. You can replace pieces of your infrastructure, or write your own, if they don't scale to your needs - but if your product isn't compelling, that's a non-starter.

The 'design phase' of most construction projects is mostly about making engineering decisions. The 'design phase' of software products is more about features, usability, and scope. While engineering plays a role, it's not the biggest one - and you can have plenty of success with bad engineering decisions. The great thing about software development is that if you're successful, you can go back and revisit your earlier decisions - and fix them if necessary.

You can build a bridge that will last a thousand years, but with software it's more important to figure out where to build the bridge TO. Or whether people would prefer a ferry.

I like the term "Informatics" pretty much describes what is the main topic in CS - so just being an Information Engineer/Artist is fine with me.

In other countries anyone that does anything computer related is an informaticien. I don't like it because it's used as a catchall for an entire industry (tech support all the way up to engineer). And, atleast in the US, informatics implies information science. A degree you get when you want to be a research librarian.

A Z80 can do almost everything that a modern CPU can do. Software is not quite so generic or fungible.

A lot of what we now call software engineering should really be sociological experimental design.

Art + Engineering = Software

I've always had the opinion that "engineer" is what the americans call a programmer. I also maintain that the largest reason behind the increasing and worrysome trend of downright lousy and inefficient software is due to it being "engineered", or should I say "overengineered", rather than just programmed. I blame a bad part of "software engineering" for this downwards spiral, but not "software engineering" itself, even if there's always a very clear distinction in what software was done by a programmer, and what software was made by an "engineer", with the latter pretty much always being the clunky and inefficient one.

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