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Mise en abyme (wikipedia.org)
87 points by Phithagoras on June 30, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 59 comments




nice example of mise en abyme ;)


I rather enjoy these little random nuggets that get posted to Hacker News.


Likewise, everytime I see the target url links to Wikipedia, I clic, it's almost always something insightful.


I'm reminded of I Am a Strange Loop and Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter. About recursiveness being at the heart of consciousness.


There's a thesis that all particles are information, and all information is functional, thus perception is merely the lazy evaluation of the universe.


How does quantum mechanic's randomness come into play here?


It doesn't have to be random - you can take a many-worlds interpretation where there is a "block history" that just branches into branches with a certain "mass", and the Born probabilities are just the subjective probabilities of finding ourselves in one Everett branch or another.


The answer is to use one of the "hidden variable" interpretations of quantum mechanics. Bell's experiments have ruled out local hidden variables, but hidden variables that violate locality are still permitted. Since this function takes the global state of the universe (hidden variables included) as its input and returns a new one for its output, there is no restriction for locality, so it remains consistent. Whether its philosophically fulfilling is left as an exercise to the reader.


so, god is a bad coder with ugly global variables everywhere ? I hope the universe is more elegant than that :)


Peter Watts plays with the idea that God is malware ;)


See Anathem by Neal Stephenson :)


compiler bugs - use of uninitialized memory


It is possible that it is non-random, but we do not have the tools / insight to perceive the patterns.


Ah, so the play in Braavos depicting recent events in Kings Landing is a Mise en abyme homage to Shakespeares Hamlet.

takes minute sip of $40 ristretto


I made a game based on the Droste effect for Ludum Dare 31 where the theme was "Entire Game on One Screen".

http://hopfog.com/screenception


Quite interesting, I ended up just staring at the timer and moving the mouse to the other side of the screen for the first version. And side to side for the 3rd


Someone should put a screenshot of the article in that article.


Already the case on the French wiki (and it was on the top of the article for a long time). https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mise_en_abyme.jpg?us...


Wonder why it was removed.


But how much stack space would you need?


Depends on whether the picture is bigger or smaller than the article.


Mise en abyme is tail-call optimised.


I was expecting that...


(as a French speaker,) I'm not sure to agree with the comments that associate "mise en abyme" with recursivity.

For me, examples of mise en abyme is a film shot in a movie, or story read from a book in a book. In CS, it means a function called from another function ... which is not necessarily recursivity :)


That was also my first thought, but after consideration, there's more to "mise en abyme" than simply placing a story within another.

I think in France everyone learns this term at least in high school, specifically applied to literature, and the way I was taught is that something in the inner story reflects something in the outer story. So for example, you'd talk about the "mise en abyme" of a specific relationship between two characters. This brings it a bit closer to self-similar recursion, but I agree it's still quite different and generally not about fully self-referential concepts (IMO Wikipedia goes a bit over the top in that regard).


"recursion" is calling a function from itself. You usually want this to terminate at some point, though, and thus will have some kind of branching, so it's not "en abyme".


For a French person, it is very difficult to see the value of the link here.


What a ridiculous comment. As if you automatically have total understanding of a concept if the term used for it is in your native language.


> What a ridiculous comment.

Please read and follow the HN guideline about not calling names:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html


French is not my native language, however the wikipedia link adds absolutely nothing to what I already knew. And don't get me wrong, I don't claim to "have total understanding of a concept".

To see what I am talking about, imagine instead of the link this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursion


Hey guys, the Wikipedia article didn't teach BanzaiTokyo anything new -- can we start making sure every article is selected just for him from now on? Thanks.


Please stop posting uncivil and unsubstantive comments to HN.


Frankly, when you look at the thread, you should be putting him on notice, not me. I said the comment was ridiculous and I stand by that statement. So, where did I call him a name exactly? The guy wastes all of our time saying that he doesn't think the link should be posted because he didn't learn anything from it. Get your priorities in order for what constitutes a substantial post, please.


The "but he did it" defense doesn't work on HN, since people have to follow the rules whether someone else does or not.

But your flagged comment was obviously personally rude, and therefore much worse than what the other person posted. No matter how ridiculous someone's opinion is, if you can't comment civilly and substantively, please don't post here.

I agree with you about the article. In fact I was the moderator who boosted it (as described at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11662380 and the links back from there.) But all that is secondary to the need to be civil, which the life of the community depends on.


You continue to misunderstand and misconstrue my points. I don't see this going anywhere as, ultimately, you're the mod, not me. I hope he continues to leave useless posts complaining about articles he doesn't personally like, since that's what you seem to appreciate. I'll just note that I did, in fact, call his post ridiculous, but explained why immediately. It wasn't an insult in a vacuum. And when he replied with a similarly absurd follow up, I used sarcasm to get my point across. I was never rude for the sake of being rude. His comment bred any incivility which followed, and that's not "but he did it" -- it's just a fact.


>he continues to leave useless posts complaining about articles he doesn't personally like

I just wanted to share that for a French speaker (not even for a native French speaker) the phrase "mise en abyme" is very familiar. So there is nothing about me personally not liking the article.


I'm literally biting my tongue.


Keep us posted on how it goes!


You dont't have to be French to not see the value of this link. I'm an Australian, living in Germany with a Chinese ancestry and I can't see how this is HN relevant.


I'm a German wearing Spanish shoes and I had Arabic lunch and I can clearly see how this is HN relevant (hint: recursion).


Oh great, now we're gonna have language hipsters referring to their functions as "mise en abyme" instead of just saying "recursive" like we've been doing for the past 40 years.


In french we also have "recursion" but it's not used for the same proposes. "Mise en abyme" is used for art or something visual and recursion when it's about logic.


No matter, hipsters will find a way.


I'm using fair trade, organic, free range, gluten free JavaScript libraries.


Can you certify they're running on renewable energy?


I can't. I'm a fraud.


Please implement Fizz Buzz mise en abymely.


Everything looks better in French.


Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

a proper mise en abyme btw


Great, it's the 19th century all over again.


Great!


Àwèsomé!


Everything looks better en Français


Mise en abyme is the new meta.


Oh Wikipedia, wrong in the very first sentence. "Mise" can indeed mean "placed", but here it's a kind of gerund and means "placing". (I looked for a Wikipedia reference to describe how this aspect of French grammar works, but all I can find is http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/fr-nouns-formed-from-...)


Did I miss something ?


Récursion as a literary device is intellectually stimulating, hence on topic. Furthermore, the y combinator is also about recursion.


I don't understand why it has been posted there




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