Why apply for EU remote working (if living in the EU) when you can remote work for a US based company? The timezone is off but programmers should be able to work autonomously and independently.
If you are willing to hire from the EU talent pool, and are happy to pay US rates to do so, that is something you should shout from the rooftops. It will get you the cream of the crop. And I'd be willing to bet there is some very good cream here.
For a recent free community project that I've launched  one of the unique selling points (along with no recruiters and doing good) is that the salary is always stated. All of the employers that have used the service have been happy to provide at least a salary range, even if it isn't shown on the job ad they have on their website.
I'm surprised jobs sites don't enforce it. Only jobs with salary information are allowed.
Anyway… If you look at general job postings on most boards, a large chunk (sometimes majority) don't even have the job in the job posting, nevermind a salary. These are resume gathering exercises by recruiters. "My client is a fortune 5000 company seeking…" People still apply to these.
If the information wasn't easily available then there was no way I was going to waste my time to apply for a job that might not even be close to the ballpark of what I'm looking for.
You can sort and search by salary here:
A couple of times this proved to be the breaking point but not that often.
There are still quite huge wage & cost of living differences, e.g. a Bulgarian programmer working remotely for a Danish, Norwegian, Swiss or English company will be getting several multiples of what they'd be able to get locally and still be in roughly the same time zone (which is important for some companies/individuals).
I am living in Berlin and work remotely for a west-coast Canadian company (9 hours time zone shift) and it is in many ways quite a sacrifice.
If posted salary is lower than yours, then you might be overpaid (meaning that you might be on your way out). If it's higher, then you'll feel like you are underpaid. Either way this does no good neither to you or the company. Hence no salaries in job postings.
I'm not asking for an exact figure just a rough range as everything is always up for negotiation.
"Either way this does no good neither to you or the company." <- I have to disagree there, you should always know if you are underpaid or that your company tries to get similarly skilled individuals for lower salaries.
Not revealing salaries I think hurts companies recruitment processes more than they realise, how many great candidates passed on applying due to not wanting to have to dig a figure out of the company. I assume they think by not revealing salaries they'll get applicants who could command the highest rate they are willing to pay PLUS 30% more applying and being offered the job and then going 'yeah I'm fine to work for 30% less'.
Of course you do.
But for the exact same reasons the company doesn't want you to -- that's what the parent is saying.
> Either way this does no good neither to you or the company.
I'd go further and say that GP's argument is wrong. Open and public salaries are good for everyone. Just look at buffer. https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries-and-formula/
From the perspective of a company who is not trying to exploit anybody, having open salaries (or at the very least, open initial salary ranges) benefits everybody: neither companies nor candidates waste time.
I'm currently working remote for a US based company, and was only able to stay in Ireland for three months on a 90-day visa. There's also a 90 day limit every 180 for US Citizens in the Schengen zone (most EU states, minus UK+Ireland). This is actually a problem I'm actively looking to solve, since I'd like to spend more time there.
I'd imagine that working for an EU company would help when applying for various exemptions or longer stay visa.
— do you set yourself up as a freelance consultant, and pay your healthcare and retirement fund yourself?
— …or do you let the company pay that for you in the country they are based in, and somehow benefit from that?
How does it work exactly for these social benefits that are very important in the european welfare model?
Anti-disclaimer: I run a company in Spain, and pay people in other countries money to do things for the company.
My understanding is that in the EU your income tax, social security, etc, must be paid to the government in the country you are "tax resident" in. Typically, you are "tax resident" if you spend more than 180 days per year in a country. (Note: that doesn't mean that if you split your time equally between three countries you avoid being tax resident at all. If only avoiding tax was that easy...)
The company employing you _might_ be willing to help with the necessary headaches of abiding by the employment law of the country you are in. But they would more than likely prefer that you are self-employed/freelance/autonomous in the country you are in. Abiding by the employment law and tax law in your country of resident becomes your problem.
How exactly that works for your social benefits depends on the country in which you are tax resident. For example, here in Spain, a freelancer ("autónomo") is not automatically entitled to state unemployment benefits ("paro") if the work ends. But you are entitled to maternity leave and retirement pension. You'd need to talk to an accountant in your country to understand exactly how exactly being a freelancer affects your social welfare rights and responsibilities.
There certainly are some tax advantages to being a freelancer: eg. being a freelancer in Spain entitles you to claim a VAT refund on any business-related expense. That new computer you want to buy? Expect that in a year or so the tax department will refund you roughly 17% of the total purchase price (21/121 of the retail price).
I've been informed by my tax consultant that you are tax-resident in the country where you spent the majority of time in a year. If you split your time between three or more countries this still applies.
Here's how you try and work out if you're tax resident in the UK:
There are automatic resident and non-resident qualifiers, but everything else involves a whole range of factors.
You might also end up with more money in your pocket, since the tax situation can be different (but not always, depends on the country). One advantage is that you can deduct most tech expenses as business expenses (i.e. laptops/software/conferences/etc)
The alternative is that your employer sets up a local "shell" company that pays you for services performed, with you being the only employee.
Of course I charge much more than a normal employee would, I make around 20k Euros per month. (pre-tax)
Sounds like a lot - almost to the point where I sometimes feel like I have to excuse myself for it, but you also have to take into account that I have 10 years of all-round experience and I'm working harder and more focussed than most normal employees and spend a lot of time in improving my skill set in my spare time.
Not only the higher income is a good reason to be self employed, the other thing is that once you work remotely for someone, it's less likely that you will count a lot for that company.
So by letting that company employ you, you basically take a lower pay with less job security while making everything more complicated for that company. I'd rater be self employed and have a much higher than usual pay that offsets the lower job security.
Most people just read the 20k number, and think, "he's making 20k a month!!!1111".
But still I'd encourage anyone interested to try. You'll not just improve your tech skill set, but if you make it work you'll also learn how to sell and to negotiate, which is a generally helpful skill to have in all areas of life.
But I know much more self employed professionals working on Java Web backends for big companies that earn equal or much more than I do.
Also the financial sector doesn't consist only of banks, there are many well funded areas one could work for remotely.
I don't know exactly how that works with foreign companies.
edit: my remark on foreign company is that, by having no nexus in the country of the consultant, going after them seems difficult
I've never actually heard of this happening, but I've encountered difficulties as a freelancer because a company was scared this could happen.
True ridiculous story: a German bank I did a consulting gig at for several months would not allow consultants to have their names on the office doors, unlike employees. They thought that having our names on the doors could be enough to turn us into "disguised employees".
I do consulting for a big technology company in Munich and they have special freelancer areas where you can have any place you want, since there is no concept of "office" for a freelancers like. Some colleagues always have to chase me, since I can choose to take another place than they are used to :).
Also, you have to bring your own coffee machine, water, you are not allowed to use the ones from the kitchen, since they are only for employees. But I just don't care :), and use them anyway.
PS. i had some other crazy contract where I had to show them proof I am working also for another client, otherwise not able to take the gig. Germany is quite special :)
I understand that these laws should prevent abuse of employees by big corporations, but it's hilarious that they go after self employed consultants that make several 100k Euros per year and already pay the maximum amount of social security that is possible.
And it's not like these companies have 2 or 3 consultants, they will likely have 10, 100 or even more. We are talking about fines that could be as high as many millions for these companies.
Yes, this doesn't matter for an engineer who makes about 100000€ a year. :)
If you're an employee, you have to pay into a government-controlled retirement fund, if you're self-employed you don't.
If you make about 100k, you (and your employer) would have to pay more than 10k a year.
So, no, if you're self-employed and make good money, you don't necessarily have to pay "the maximum amount of social security" :)
There are some self-employed that need to pay into the retirement fund, including teachers (which is applied broadly, e.g. training supervisors and moderators), journalists, and artists.
Also don't forget about the unemployment fund into which employees must pay.
> lower price, 500€ private
Heavily depends on your health and age. Additionally family members are insured for free in public but not private insurance which might tip the scale. Also important to note is that it's close to impossible for most to switch back to public insurance once they decided to go private (e.g. if the premiums rise in the future).
Before that you just have to report, that you're unemployed and the state forces you to go back into public healthcare
Contrary to popular (Dutch) belief, you do not have to have more than one customer... it's just that if you do it can be difficult to prove that you are autonomous. One test is if you are doing the same type of work that other employees in the company are doing.
I'm not sure how this works for for international agreements (self-employed in NL but only customer in DE).
I actually did this for a while - self-employed in NO, only customer in NL. After a while I had more than one customer, making the issue moot :-)
US based companies can hire remote workers as 1099 contractors.
But you're just employed by the branch. You're not working for them. You're still working remotely with your colleagues elsewhere.
(Of course I can understand why US companies make this restriction, I just wish other job boards would help them make this more clear up front.)
Now I want something for asia timezones and I'm happy.
Ramit has high end courses on finding a job, negotiating your salary, freelancing, online business and more. All these sell for a very high price and have a high success rate among the students, that get extraordinary results. I spent myself thousands of dollars in their trainings and they were the best spent money of my life.
IWT is a multimillion business, with many employees, and their salaries and benefits are usually higher than the average. And it even allows you to work remotely. Looks like a very serious opportunity to me.
Although it sounds high pressure to work overtime, it actually sounds like a pretty interesting job. Apart from the PHP.
I wonder how they suggest to handle that.
EU working time directive? You can just opt out of that, and it doesn't apply anyway to lots of jobs like doctors, military etc, so it certainly isn't simply 'highly illegal'.
Are you saying that if there's some major medical incident, with medical facilities overwhelmed, hundreds of people needing help, German doctors would just say 'sorry, ten hours, I'm off home to watch TV'. I'm sure that's not true.
There are a number of exceptions for extraordinary situations, that could not have been anticipated by the employer, to allow exceeding the 10 hours. However the rule about the average in the next 6 months or 24 weeks still applies.
And then there are the exceptions for doctors or nurses, and at that point even lawyers need to look at the text to find out what actually applies.
Personally I refuse to ever opt-out, I have crossed out opt-out clauses in employment contracts, even when I don't think the company was serious about requiring overtime.
So either they're opting out of it, the law doesn't apply to them, or they're working illegally. That or you're going to say that most of the countries in the EU don't have 'reasonable regulation'.
I had to double check if I am reading a job ad or hipster blogger's about page.
Though, the site itself is great, there are indeed many 'remote' job ads, though somehow by default many are 'remote in USA', so it's great value.
Indeed, it seems that there is hardly any room left for mere programmers in this industry :-).
One observation: maybe in this case, including the number of subscribers is actually a deterrent for getting people to subscribe. I'm talking about the "Join over 1100 subscribers." line.
You may be triggering a "damn, I'm going to have to compete with that many other developers for the same handful of jobs?" response instead of the usual "If that many people trust this guy with their email, it must be OK for me to give it" one that this best practice suggests.
I'd subscribed to a remote-only jobs board and the issue was that either I didn't qualify for work due to my residency, or the company never really responded.
I would say if these issues didn't exist most companies wouldn't have to import a workforce from elsewhere. Most third-world countries have a decent quality of life that we wouldn't have to transplant ourselves & be harassed by less-qualified xenophobic residents just to work and pay obscene taxes (by third-world standards) that in the end does serve them.
I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising) and for the populace to wake up once the industries that kept them at the top move out of there.
 - Most of us speak fluent English and are aware of western cultural sensibilities & work ethics (thanks, Hollywood! & outsourcing firms). Our skill level isn't to blame either since we adhere to industry standards in code-quality, best practices, design patterns, etc.
I'm Westernized, loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome, but thanks to nationalities and nationalists the U.S. has imposed these arbitrary impediments designed to keep away those willing to move from their native countries to further their careers.
I was brought up in an Urban city, English is the only language I've learnt right from childhood and continue to do so, the language that I'm most fluent in. (yes I can't read or write my native tongue). I do agree that lying on resumes is widespread that some of us (who believe we're upto snuff in our fields) don't bother to bring resumes to job interviews, usually we're contacted by recruiters/hiring teams based on our past projects.
I'm going off on a tangent here, but even if English is the only language you speak, it doesn't necessarily make you fluent at communicating with Americans, because you aren't necessarily exposed to the same cultural and linguistic nuances. This can often lead to a lot of miscommunication.
I have met many Indians who are fluent in English and it's the "only thing" they speak and they wear it as a badge with pride. Ironically, these people are worse than the people who are not as fluent in English because they tend to speak English at extremely high speeds as if they are reciting something, which makes it just as hard to understand. And combine that with an accent, and you've lost all the advantage you have as a "native" English speaker.
I do agree that there could be a little bit of a cultural disconnect, accent could be an issue as well. Although it's surprising that those "fluent in English" would have no ideas about stress, intonation, etc but I digress. I wouldn't class myself as a native speaker, only one who is able to communicate properly with a native speaker.
That is not very nice of you. Sure everyone wants the best options for their careers no matter where they are, but don't say these things loosely.
I live in America and to be honest, it is still one of the most immigrant friendly countries in the world. Yes they have difficult and archaic immigration rules which need to be improved.
If you are truly good, then companies from the US will hire you remotely. I know that it is possible even though a bit more difficult. A lot of tech companies have opened local offices in India and they pay really well.
I work with Startups more often than with established companies (I work with interdisciplinary teams) and for a fledgling startup to onboard a remote employee is risky.
 - When a leading Presidential candidate wants to block you from entering the country because of your faith, I'd say most others would resort to stronger words.
The U.S. is actually not that diverse. It's middle-of-the-road in that category (ethnically  and culturally ). In fact, both of its neighboring countries are rated higher.
It's always seemed to me that part of the American culture is a determination that comes partly from the mentality of immigrating despite the objections of the people already here. The people who needed to be welcomed stayed in their own countries and the headstrong people who just didn't care came to the US.
It almost America's version of fraternity hazing or that hellish 201 course that winnows the field down to just those willing to endure unpleasantness to achieve their goals.
- you want us to be more xenophobic, but in the same time steal local jobs for yourself, with our pay, but your local expenses. just WOW
- there are specific laws to prevent what you want to do, at least in some cases. it's called protection of local market, and a very good think to do, helps economy long term.
- again, xenophobic WHAT? I sit in 1 row here with Swiss, British (err... Scotch), Belgian, Kiwi, Chinese, French, Dutch, Ukrainian, Indian, Philippino etc. No issues whatsoever.
- you have a naive view of how good remote Indian resources are. technical skills happen to be OK in many cases, but all remaining, and at least EQUALLY necessary are not. 0 initiative, 0 willingness to take any risk/personal responsibility for decisions. "please hand me over perfect spec and I'll get it done" is nice, but doesn't work in world without perfect spec, or any spec at all. Plus Bangalore is not cheap anymore, Pune is so-so. Eastern Europe wins so far in price/value ratio.
and I could go on and on... one strongly suspect troll there :)
Wouldn't recommend calling us Scots "Scotch". We're not whisky ;)
I'm well aware of traditional "Indian resources", one's that are trained over a 3 month period and passed off as "Expert in his field", and coached to give B.S. responses while they scour for another underling with better skills suited for the project.
But there are others who truly understand the product needs, and aren't afraid to engage in a discussion to figure out the best outcome for the product rather than to satisfy the clients.
Keeping things polite is a good intention, but this is far from keeping things polite.
> pay obscene taxes
I quickly skimmed the wikipedia article about taxes in India and it seems like if you were to earn as much as companies in Europe are paying for developers you would be either in 30% bracket or 20% bracket. 30% is more than I pay and I live in Europe. Doesn't seem obscene to me.
Honestly surprised that you pay lesser taxes than us. Not sure which country you're from. I expected the EU to have similar tax brackets. My tax rant was more to do with the fact that taxes contribute to the very citizens' that complain.
Also taxes in India are a lower amount comparatively because it's base salaries and CoL is much lower to begin with. A SE with Google or Amazon India makes about ~ $24,000.
What's the total number of people your family had contact with vs number of people that told them 'to go back home'?
> but one which my family has experienced.
To quote hn favorite "The plural of anecdote is not data".
Or are you living in India and complaining that you won't qualify to work in companies that are expecting people from EU to contact them?
> I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising)
I definitely agree with everything else you just said. I'm a Swiss citizen, Swiss born and raised, US educated, but my parents are not from Switzerland, and my name is not Swiss. I look as European as anybody else.
I couldn't even get a data entry job in Switzerland dammit. The US companies where asking for relocation, and if remote only at a 3-4x lower salary. I can't stand the US car culture (I'm a walkable city guy) so relocation was not an option for me.
Ended up doing a startup in my parent's home country. Fully bootstrapped, great revenue, great quality of life. 10-15% income tax.
With global health insurance, superb quality of life, walkable cities, cheap everything, no discrimination against you... Why would anybody want to move to the EU or US nowadays?
See https://www.walkscore.com/ and try typing in various cities or zip codes.
Notable semi-exceptions might be Downtown SF, Manhattan, and Vancouver in Canada. But all of them have serious drawbacks when it comes to public transportation and rent prices.
- your parents are non-swiss and non-european, but came here, got you citizenship and adter growing up here you moved to US for university and stayed away - is that right?
You shouldn't be surprised what they asked from you - relocation. There are specific laws who companies can employ here, and noone is going to break the law just because you would like to set things up your way. If they allowed that, in couple of years Suisse in many ways would be gone as we know it. As you well know, it's a tiny job market with high salaries. they need to keep people spending their earned cash here. Your citizenship doesn't make any difference, it's not xenophobia or anything, just simple laws that people and companies here follow.
- taxes you mention are possible here too, it's super safe here even compared to rest of Europe (US is simply uncomparable) etc. If you are happy where you are, great for you! All you describe is from my view valid about Switzerland too.
The problem is that Swiss companies certainly hire you if you have a foreign background (as long as you can do the job), but they will think twice about it, and they expect you to accept a considerably lower salary as a "foreigner" too.
When everybody in the industry talks about "talent shortage" what they really mean is "talent shortage at a lower price point". They get to the lower price point by exploiting immigrants or as in my case people they consider foreigners.
That got a chuckle out of me. Gotta blame Shaqiri, Xhaka, etc for being so good :)
If you know the young scene and make friends quickly, as a digital nomad Prishtina, Split, Belgrade are also awesome. Try Istanbul if you really like a lively city.
Of course, that is the whole point. It has to serve our economy primarily. No one is against India having it's own strong economy, why would anyone, but it is not our business to improve your economy.
It sounds harsh but no one except your own people will improve your economy. You do it yourselves or no one will.
> I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising) and for the populace to wake up once the industries that kept them at the top move out of there.
Why would you wish that there is more anti-immigrant sentiment or even worse racism? (that sadly is happening right now)
Aside from that your logic is faulty. These businesses move somewhere else because our business elite decides so and the legal framework for doing so is set up by our political elites and guess what: It is done in a way to primarily improve our own economies or our political power.
If the political elite doesn't like something about the policies of country X they will put sanctions in place and our business elite will (with a few exceptions) follow.
> I'm Westernized, loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome, but thanks to nationalities and nationalists the U.S. has imposed these arbitrary impediments designed to keep away those willing to move from their native countries to further their careers.
We are nation states with citizenships and borders. All of our states primarily serve their own citizens, not others.
There is no human right allowing me to live in Monaco, Tokyo or New Dheli just because I want to further my career. The only exception is asylum for persons that are threatened in their own countries, but aside from that there is no obligation whatsoever.
The real problem (for us) is that the quality of immigrants differs by a very large margin. Countries like France and Belgium (where I have lived) rather let in the first 10,000 applicants vs the best 10,000.
The US is far far better in that regards with Canada probably being the best example imo.
"loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome.. .."
I have been an immigrant in a bunch of places. Most people are awesome, especially personally. Some people are xenophobic, especially politically. IE, when people are thinking politically and abstractly abstractly about migrants they tend more towards xenophobia. The place where you feel this most is at the immigration office where they make you feel unwanted and make sure you know you know you are owed nothing. Also when the politicians talk.
Anyway… Who says you shouldn't feel entitled to live peacefully and lawfully anywhere? These rules didn't come with the world. We made them. There have been different rules in different times and places. Should you feel entitled to leave any country you want? How about internal migration, like moving from New York to Minnesota? How about changing profession?
None of these were rights until and unless we made them rights.
It looks to me that you got upset by the parent's unrestrained comment and pushed back in the same spirit.
P.S. I'd like to get in touch with you if possible.
Remote workers by contrast would be a cheaper alternative for a business than a H-1B employee since they have to adhere to certain conditions and maybe spend to apply for a GC if the employee requests it.
India has the worst bureaucracies due to corruption and inefficiency (thankfully it's set to change). Nobody would debate that.
I'm aware of incidents where H-1B workers couldn't visit their home country for their parents' funeral because of some document issues. Also, I fail to see how offensive and prejudiced my comments are for pointing out incidents of harassment. And my entire premise is that they don't have to if remote working is an option, thanks for agreeing with me on that.
> With an attitude like that it's maybe not very surprising
Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News, so please edit them out of your comments here.
I couldn't resist and applied a similar filter to the jobs / gigs I found for my own service, SendGigs. I require one of the the tags full-time or salary, and exclude everything that is tagged US-only. Then I'm left with 20 jobs, see https://www.sendgigs.com/2015-12-10
So at least to me it looks like there is a lot of remote opportunities for non-US developers. And it is getting better with more and more companies figuring out remote work.
(I started writing this as a question but found the answer myself in the footer links...)
We're based roughly around London time -- though we now have developers from Costa Rica to Bangalore. Bangalore was easy, though, and US timezones were harder. The gap in timezones there is big enough that it took us a while to jump that successfully (and people working in US timezones still need to be fairly independent), so I imagine it works similarly in the other direction (US-based companies hiring EU-based remote workers)... once the gap is more than 3-4 hours you either need an established core of senior full-stack people in that timezone range, or just proceed quite carefully and offer extra support.
The Elixr position had a "apply with LinkedIn" which worked surprisingly well (must look into how, that seems a sellable app), and I almost had an online CV to upload. Almost.