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Europe Remotely – EU-friendly remote dev jobs (europeremotely.com)
279 points by dabrorius on Dec 10, 2015 | hide | past | favorite | 154 comments

I think a lot of these job postings would have a lot more success if they showed salary ranges, in fact that just applies to all job postings.

Why apply for EU remote working (if living in the EU) when you can remote work for a US based company? The timezone is off but programmers should be able to work autonomously and independently.

Especially considering the huge disconnect between what EU and US employers consider reasonable. I see [salary missing] and read "probably pays EU35,000 for a Senior Dev."

If you are willing to hire from the EU talent pool, and are happy to pay US rates to do so, that is something you should shout from the rooftops. It will get you the cream of the crop. And I'd be willing to bet there is some very good cream here.

Not listing salary just wastes people's time and I've never liked the practice. You either have to go through the process just to find out it wasn't worth it or just not bother. Every company must have a budget in mind, they just want to spend as little as possible.

For a recent free community project that I've launched [0] one of the unique selling points (along with no recruiters and doing good) is that the salary is always stated. All of the employers that have used the service have been happy to provide at least a salary range, even if it isn't shown on the job ad they have on their website.

[0] https://cleanwebjobs.com

Absolutely, I work for a globally distributed company who are based in the US and the employees that are in the EU are easily some of the most talented people I've ever worked with!

Not posting salaries always baffles me. I mean, I understand the negotiating advantage. Maybe also wanting to keep salary information quite within the company. But, surely, this is a relevant piece of information for the person deciding to apply.

I'm surprised jobs sites don't enforce it. Only jobs with salary information are allowed.

You just gave me this idea, I should enforce the salary field for my daily imports for AngJobs(https://github.com/victorantos/AngJobs) Thank you!


I'm sure it must just lead to rubbish applicants. I'd be amazed if anyone with any options would waste their time hunting for salaries when they can deal with companies who at least give them an indicative range. I have literally never applied for a job that didn't have a salary listed, and don't intend to.

Well, first of all, the relative number of times different people apply for jobs in a lifetime throws any kind of average/median out whack^. Some people never apply for any job off a posting. Some apply for hundreds. The former group tends to have more desirable employees.

Anyway… If you look at general job postings on most boards, a large chunk (sometimes majority) don't even have the job in the job posting, nevermind a salary. These are resume gathering exercises by recruiters. "My client is a fortune 5000 company seeking…" People still apply to these.

^ http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDeveloper...

Indeed, when I applied for my last job if I found an interesting company I'd always check for salary information, quite a few companies have that info on https://angel.co/

If the information wasn't easily available then there was no way I was going to waste my time to apply for a job that might not even be close to the ballpark of what I'm looking for.

I've worked my entire career in Germany, Austria & Israel and not once did I see a job ad advertise salary. This might be location dependent?

At a quick glance, it doesn't seem to be common but not absolutely unheard of either.


You can sort and search by salary here: http://www.jobmaster.co.il/code/check/search.asp?headcatnum=...

How on earth do you determine which jobs are worth applying to, then?

I apply to those that sounds interesting (company and/or project) & if both sides want to go on after the interview we discuss salary.

A couple of times this proved to be the breaking point but not that often.

Same in Belgium, except for public sector jobs.

A lot of employers want employees that will be active during normal business hours (+/- a couple hours).

There are still quite huge wage & cost of living differences, e.g. a Bulgarian programmer working remotely for a Danish, Norwegian, Swiss or English company will be getting several multiples of what they'd be able to get locally and still be in roughly the same time zone (which is important for some companies/individuals).

I am living in Berlin and work remotely for a west-coast Canadian company (9 hours time zone shift) and it is in many ways quite a sacrifice.

If same timezone is all you want, why restrict it to EU? Cape Town is the same time zone as Bulgaria, and if you're outsourcing anyway EU citizenship doesn't matter.

I think you're reading too much into the name - it's simply a site that collates job offers that align well with European time zones. It doesn't actually say you have to have an EU citizenship, anyone can apply to the ads collected by it.

Imagine yourself working for a company and coming across one of its job postings for a position similar to yours.

If posted salary is lower than yours, then you might be overpaid (meaning that you might be on your way out). If it's higher, then you'll feel like you are underpaid. Either way this does no good neither to you or the company. Hence no salaries in job postings.

If the salary is higher for the same position then the company has been underpaying you, if the salary is lower then they are trying to get someone on the cheap. Either way I'd want to know if this situation.

I'm not asking for an exact figure just a rough range as everything is always up for negotiation.

"Either way this does no good neither to you or the company." <- I have to disagree there, you should always know if you are underpaid or that your company tries to get similarly skilled individuals for lower salaries.

Not revealing salaries I think hurts companies recruitment processes more than they realise, how many great candidates passed on applying due to not wanting to have to dig a figure out of the company. I assume they think by not revealing salaries they'll get applicants who could command the highest rate they are willing to pay PLUS 30% more applying and being offered the job and then going 'yeah I'm fine to work for 30% less'.

>If the salary is higher for the same position then the company has been underpaying you, if the salary is lower then they are trying to get someone on the cheap. Either way I'd want to know if this situation.

Of course you do.

But for the exact same reasons the company doesn't want you to -- that's what the parent is saying.

I had the impression that the parent implied the situation was advantageous to both employees and companies yet in reality it's only advantageous to the companies.

I'd say you have the right impression.

> Either way this does no good neither to you or the company.

I'd go further and say that GP's argument is wrong. Open and public salaries are good for everyone. Just look at buffer. https://open.buffer.com/transparent-salaries-and-formula/

It's nice that Buffer exposed their salaries publicly, but I strongly dislike how they use location-based salaries. If they aren't willing to pay US salaries to EU people, they will never get the best EU people. For an average EU salary you'll get an average EU developer.

This logic only applies if the company is trying to take advantage of their employees. Ultimately, it always blows up anyway because employees talk to one another.

From the perspective of a company who is not trying to exploit anybody, having open salaries (or at the very least, open initial salary ranges) benefits everybody: neither companies nor candidates waste time.

That certainly isn't good for the company, but it's incredibly valuable information for both job-seekers and the employee who may be over/under paid. Therefore it should be shared.

One big upside I can think of would establishing a permanent residency in the country of your employer.

I'm currently working remote for a US based company, and was only able to stay in Ireland for three months on a 90-day visa. There's also a 90 day limit every 180 for US Citizens in the Schengen zone (most EU states, minus UK+Ireland). This is actually a problem I'm actively looking to solve, since I'd like to spend more time there.

I'd imagine that working for an EU company would help when applying for various exemptions or longer stay visa.

When you are full-time employed, remotely, by a european company, and living in another european country, does anyone know :

— do you set yourself up as a freelance consultant, and pay your healthcare and retirement fund yourself?

— …or do you let the company pay that for you in the country they are based in, and somehow benefit from that?

How does it work exactly for these social benefits that are very important in the european welfare model?

Disclaimer: I am not an accountant nor an employment lawyer.

Anti-disclaimer: I run a company in Spain, and pay people in other countries money to do things for the company.

My understanding is that in the EU your income tax, social security, etc, must be paid to the government in the country you are "tax resident" in. Typically, you are "tax resident" if you spend more than 180 days per year in a country. (Note: that doesn't mean that if you split your time equally between three countries you avoid being tax resident at all. If only avoiding tax was that easy...)

The company employing you _might_ be willing to help with the necessary headaches of abiding by the employment law of the country you are in. But they would more than likely prefer that you are self-employed/freelance/autonomous in the country you are in. Abiding by the employment law and tax law in your country of resident becomes your problem.

How exactly that works for your social benefits depends on the country in which you are tax resident. For example, here in Spain, a freelancer ("autónomo") is not automatically entitled to state unemployment benefits ("paro") if the work ends. But you are entitled to maternity leave and retirement pension. You'd need to talk to an accountant in your country to understand exactly how exactly being a freelancer affects your social welfare rights and responsibilities.

There certainly are some tax advantages to being a freelancer: eg. being a freelancer in Spain entitles you to claim a VAT refund on any business-related expense. That new computer you want to buy? Expect that in a year or so the tax department will refund you roughly 17% of the total purchase price (21/121 of the retail price).

> Typically, you are "tax resident" if you spend more than 180 days per year in a country. (Note: that doesn't mean that if you split your time equally between three countries you avoid being tax resident at all. If only avoiding tax was that easy...)

I've been informed by my tax consultant that you are tax-resident in the country where you spent the majority of time in a year. If you split your time between three or more countries this still applies.

That's far too simplistic, sadly. It's perfectly possible to be tax resident in multiple countries - I am tax resident in two, for example, neither of which is the US.

Here's how you try and work out if you're tax resident in the UK:


There are automatic resident and non-resident qualifiers, but everything else involves a whole range of factors.

It depends in the country really. In Portugal and Spain it is really that simple, you do not live more than 180 days in a year in the country, you are not tax resident.

So if I spend 125 days in the UAE (a no income tax country) and 120 days each in 2 EU countries, I pay no income tax?

Actually it's that easy to be a non-resident (except for US citizens):


By far the easiest way is to become self employed and take care of everything yourself. You could be "trading" as an individual, or through a legal entity. Your salary (i.e. a lump sum you invoice each month) would be a bit higher to account for these. If you'd make $8k as an employed engineer, maybe you'd get paid $12k to account for that.

You might also end up with more money in your pocket, since the tax situation can be different (but not always, depends on the country). One advantage is that you can deduct most tech expenses as business expenses (i.e. laptops/software/conferences/etc)

The alternative is that your employer sets up a local "shell" company that pays you for services performed, with you being the only employee.

I'm doing exactly that, I'm self employed and take care of everything myself or at least I have someone taking care of it in my place.

Of course I charge much more than a normal employee would, I make around 20k Euros per month. (pre-tax)

Sounds like a lot - almost to the point where I sometimes feel like I have to excuse myself for it, but you also have to take into account that I have 10 years of all-round experience and I'm working harder and more focussed than most normal employees and spend a lot of time in improving my skill set in my spare time.

Not only the higher income is a good reason to be self employed, the other thing is that once you work remotely for someone, it's less likely that you will count a lot for that company.

So by letting that company employ you, you basically take a lower pay with less job security while making everything more complicated for that company. I'd rater be self employed and have a much higher than usual pay that offsets the lower job security.

And right you are. Once you account for all the taxes and expenses that you have to pay yourself, you lose a significant amount of money each month.

Most people just read the 20k number, and think, "he's making 20k a month!!!1111".

Yes, I pay a 50% tax here. Additionally one has to consider that you might have some down time between two projects where you don't have any income.

But still I'd encourage anyone interested to try. You'll not just improve your tech skill set, but if you make it work you'll also learn how to sell and to negotiate, which is a generally helpful skill to have in all areas of life.

Where are you based?

Thanks for the very interesting data point. If you can share this, may I ask you how many hours you need to work per week to get that amount?

out of curiosity what kind of jobs you take up that pay off so much?

Native mobile development for big businesses like banks or telcos. No startups as they often have lower budgets.

But I know much more self employed professionals working on Java Web backends for big companies that earn equal or much more than I do.

But that's not remote, right?

Depends on the project. For banks it's less likely that you'll be able to do something remote, but for telcos it's less of a problem as they rely less on security by obscurity and both use and give back to Open Source projects a lot.

Also the financial sector doesn't consist only of banks, there are many well funded areas one could work for remotely.

In France it's risky to be self-employed and have only one customer, that could be re-qualified as a disguised employment.

I don't know exactly how that works with foreign companies.

edit: my remark on foreign company is that, by having no nexus in the country of the consultant, going after them seems difficult

Same in Germany. It is risky for the company, not for the "disguised employee", because the company can find that the freelancer subsequently demands back-payment of entitlements.

I've never actually heard of this happening, but I've encountered difficulties as a freelancer because a company was scared this could happen.

True ridiculous story: a German bank I did a consulting gig at for several months would not allow consultants to have their names on the office doors, unlike employees. They thought that having our names on the doors could be enough to turn us into "disguised employees".

No is not ridiculous at all: having your name on a door means that you are "forced" to work there, thus rendering you in a employee since you cannot determine for yourself the place and location of work, the cornerstones of beeing a freelancer.

I do consulting for a big technology company in Munich and they have special freelancer areas where you can have any place you want, since there is no concept of "office" for a freelancers like. Some colleagues always have to chase me, since I can choose to take another place than they are used to :).

Also, you have to bring your own coffee machine, water, you are not allowed to use the ones from the kitchen, since they are only for employees. But I just don't care :), and use them anyway.

PS. i had some other crazy contract where I had to show them proof I am working also for another client, otherwise not able to take the gig. Germany is quite special :)

I heard this has to do with the fact that once social services prove that you are not actually self employed the employer would have to pay back a significant amount to social services AND a fine on top of that.

I understand that these laws should prevent abuse of employees by big corporations, but it's hilarious that they go after self employed consultants that make several 100k Euros per year and already pay the maximum amount of social security that is possible.

And it's not like these companies have 2 or 3 consultants, they will likely have 10, 100 or even more. We are talking about fines that could be as high as many millions for these companies.

In Germany you need to make about 60000€ a year to get private health insurance (better service, lower price) OR you have to be self-employed, where it doesn't matter how much you make. (500€ private, 750€ public)

Yes, this doesn't matter for an engineer who makes about 100000€ a year. :)


If you're an employee, you have to pay into a government-controlled retirement fund, if you're self-employed you don't.

If you make about 100k, you (and your employer) would have to pay more than 10k a year.

So, no, if you're self-employed and make good money, you don't necessarily have to pay "the maximum amount of social security" :)

For the retirement fund only the first 74,400€ (west) or 64,800€ (east) of your income is used (2016 numbers, different rules if you work in mining). For anything over you don't pay into the retirement fund.

There are some self-employed that need to pay into the retirement fund, including teachers (which is applied broadly, e.g. training supervisors and moderators), journalists, and artists.

Also don't forget about the unemployment fund into which employees must pay.

> lower price, 500€ private

Heavily depends on your health and age. Additionally family members are insured for free in public but not private insurance which might tip the scale. Also important to note is that it's close to impossible for most to switch back to public insurance once they decided to go private (e.g. if the premiums rise in the future).

Only after 50 it is impossible to switch back.

Before that you just have to report, that you're unemployed and the state forces you to go back into public healthcare

A software engineer can make 100k€ in Germany? Where's that!?

Never said "software" engineer :P


I knew it! :/

It's similar in The Netherlands. If you are self-employed and have more than one customer it's pretty demonstrable that you are autonomous, can decline work, and the relationship is not solely to avoid an employment contract.

Contrary to popular (Dutch) belief, you do not have to have more than one customer... it's just that if you do it can be difficult to prove that you are autonomous. One test is if you are doing the same type of work that other employees in the company are doing.

I'm not sure how this works for for international agreements (self-employed in NL but only customer in DE).

I'd assume the rules are the same in principle but you would be more likely to be considered autonomous in practice if audited. Also because you're probably providing your own equipment, office etc.

I actually did this for a while - self-employed in NO, only customer in NL. After a while I had more than one customer, making the issue moot :-)

And the UK, the relevant legislation being IR35.


The IRS in the US also has regulations regarding single employer contractors/consultants. A company cannot turn its employees into independent contractors to skip out on things such as payroll taxes.

It's exactly the same situation in Spain. (I'm freelance, spanish, working in Spain).

Same in Italy.

It varies from country to country. I think most of EU countries require you be more than 6 months in the country to be an employee. Usually people have LTD for more flexibility and lower taxes.

US based companies can hire remote workers as 1099 contractors.

https://github.com/tadast/switching-to-contracting-uk/tree/f... https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job

It depends on the country, but you will probably have to found some kind of legal entity. For questions like these you can ask for help on our slack community: http://europeremotely.com/community.html

If your employer has a branch office in your country of residence, they could make you a regular employee of that branch and take care of all the legal/tax issues for you.

But you're just employed by the branch. You're not working for them. You're still working remotely with your colleagues elsewhere.

Thanks! This is really nice. I find it frustrating to browse remote job ads only to find out at the end, that they mean "remote, but US only".

(Of course I can understand why US companies make this restriction, I just wish other job boards would help them make this more clear up front.)

I agree with this. I applied on a handful of jobs stating "work from everywhere you want" in the past only to later find out that they meant US only.

Now I want something for asia timezones and I'm happy.

I agree, even on smarthires.io, where positions are supposedly vetted and only open to YC alumni, I've had several companies that have abruptly ended the conversation when I state I'm based in Europe, despite my profile clearly stating that my preferred location is London or Remote.

The first item on the list is "I Will Teach You To Be Rich". That, to me, is a sign that I won't find serious opportunities on there.

That is just because you have no idea what IWTYTBR is.

Ramit has high end courses on finding a job, negotiating your salary, freelancing, online business and more. All these sell for a very high price and have a high success rate among the students, that get extraordinary results. I spent myself thousands of dollars in their trainings and they were the best spent money of my life.

IWT is a multimillion business, with many employees, and their salaries and benefits are usually higher than the average. And it even allows you to work remotely. Looks like a very serious opportunity to me.

Maybe it's just me, but when I see that name, especially combined with the title "Growth Engineer", it screams scam. It's good that you're happy with their service, but I just wouldn't be able to take anyone working for that company seriously.

To be fair, it's an actual company that's really called I will teach you to be rich.


Although it sounds high pressure to work overtime, it actually sounds like a pretty interesting job. Apart from the PHP.

This sounds very illegal. Working more than 8h overall a day, no matter in how many jobs, is highly illegal.

I wonder how they suggest to handle that.

> Working more than 8h overall a day, no matter in how many jobs, is highly illegal.

EU working time directive? You can just opt out of that, and it doesn't apply anyway to lots of jobs like doctors, military etc, so it certainly isn't simply 'highly illegal'.

At least in Germany, there is no legal opt-out. Only in emergencies, and even then only 10h a day.

> Only in emergencies, and even then only 10h a day.

Are you saying that if there's some major medical incident, with medical facilities overwhelmed, hundreds of people needing help, German doctors would just say 'sorry, ten hours, I'm off home to watch TV'. I'm sure that's not true.

The grandparent is slightly wrong. You are allowed to work 10 hours if your average over the next 6 months or 24 weeks does not exceed 8 hours a day. (Where "day" includes Saturdays but excludes Sundays and holidays)

There are a number of exceptions for extraordinary situations, that could not have been anticipated by the employer, to allow exceeding the 10 hours. However the rule about the average in the next 6 months or 24 weeks still applies.

It’s a bit complicated, yeah.

And then there are the exceptions for doctors or nurses, and at that point even lawyers need to look at the text to find out what actually applies.

In rare emergencies, the limit is gone, but then the employee needs at least 2 days of free time after that shift.

I believe only the UK has an opt-out to the WTD.

Personally I refuse to ever opt-out, I have crossed out opt-out clauses in employment contracts, even when I don't think the company was serious about requiring overtime.

In any country with reasonable regulation it's going to be especially illegal, if you're a doctor and certainly not something you can opt out of.

In terms of doctor's working hours 'only 6 of the 27 European member states meet the prescribed standard' (of maximum 8 hours a day) [1].

So either they're opting out of it, the law doesn't apply to them, or they're working illegally. That or you're going to say that most of the countries in the EU don't have 'reasonable regulation'.

[1] http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6920/14/S1/S8

Not, it's just not. You're misinformed. Even if the Working Time Directive was involved (which it's not, if you want to opt out), it limits work to 9.6 hours/day.

Illegal where? Labour regulations are very country-specific. The EU directive covering this is... flexible.

The directive says that working hours should not exceed 48 per week (so this by itself allows working more than 8h a day), plus it's ON AVERAGE, so if you do 60 hours one week and 36 another, it should be okay

I was reluctant to add that posting because of the project name. However if you read the job posting it seems much more serious than the name implies. It was an edge case but I decided to add it in the end.

If it becomes an issue, you could change the project name to Ramit Sethi (the guy behind IWTYTBR). He's pretty well known and has personal brand recognition. I don't really recognise any of the other companies on the list, maybe Semaphore, but I was really surprised to see "Whoa, Ramit's hiring."

I can see it being a difficult decision for you to make there, given that apparently that is a real business name. But that combined with the title "Growth Engineer" just really makes it look like a pyramid scheme or other scam.

That's the name of the business.

> You should be (or have a strong desire to become) a HTML5 geek, JavaScript nerd and CSS wizard.

I had to double check if I am reading a job ad or hipster blogger's about page.

Though, the site itself is great, there are indeed many 'remote' job ads, though somehow by default many are 'remote in USA', so it's great value.

> > You should be (or have a strong desire to become) a HTML5 geek, JavaScript nerd and CSS wizard.

Indeed, it seems that there is hardly any room left for mere programmers in this industry :-).

This is awesome.

One observation: maybe in this case, including the number of subscribers is actually a deterrent for getting people to subscribe. I'm talking about the "Join over 1100 subscribers." line.

You may be triggering a "damn, I'm going to have to compete with that many other developers for the same handful of jobs?" response instead of the usual "If that many people trust this guy with their email, it must be OK for me to give it" one that this best practice suggests.

That's a good point, even though 1100 is really not that much of a competition when you think about it. Five or more jobs per week, each requiring different skills, it really adds up in job opportunities. But I get your point - it makes a negative psychological effect, I'll consider removing it. Thanks!

Agreed - perhaps a better metric would be the number of open positions?

funny, because it works both ways either you find the number big or small: "I'm competing against too many people" or "there is nobody on this half dead site".

As an Indian, I doubt I'll qualify for work in these companies. The problem for non-EU, non-US devs wishing to work remotely [1] is that most companies can't legally employ you or aren't willing to jump through bureaucratic hoops just to employ you.

I'd subscribed to a remote-only jobs board and the issue was that either I didn't qualify for work due to my residency, or the company never really responded.

I would say if these issues didn't exist most companies wouldn't have to import a workforce from elsewhere. Most third-world countries have a decent quality of life that we wouldn't have to transplant ourselves & be harassed by less-qualified xenophobic residents just to work and pay obscene taxes (by third-world standards) that in the end does serve them.

I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising) and for the populace to wake up once the industries that kept them at the top move out of there.

[1] - Most of us speak fluent English and are aware of western cultural sensibilities & work ethics (thanks, Hollywood! & outsourcing firms). Our skill level isn't to blame either since we adhere to industry standards in code-quality, best practices, design patterns, etc.

I'm Westernized, loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome, but thanks to nationalities and nationalists the U.S. has imposed these arbitrary impediments designed to keep away those willing to move from their native countries to further their careers.

I am a developer living in Canada (emigrated from India a long time ago) and I have heard of and seen many outsourcing horror stories. So I wouldn't say most Indians adhere to "industry standards" in code-quality, etc. They are just in it to make money and many times do a very shitty job. Also, communicating with them isn't very easy. Most Indians think they speak fluent English, but I would say in my experience it's business level, not fluent. And ditto for cultural sensibilities and work ethics. I have first hand experienced many new-comers just flat out lie on their resume to get a job and act like it's not a big deal.

The problem is with "outsourcing" in the first place; the incentives are totally different. I'd like to hear from Western companies who've hired remote workers in India... I used to work in for a non-profit that is based in the U.S. but has its dev team in Poland. I think it is an open-ended outsourcing contract that's still going on years after it was started, i.e. they are pretty much employees. When we've had problems with code quality we'd call them out on it and they'd clean up their act. That's something you can't get with touch and go outsourcing.

Fab.com had outsourced it's entire engineering to a company in Pune. They did eventually acquire the company itself.

I fully agree with what you've said, and unfortunately it's a stereotype permeated by the IT Sweatshops of TCS, Infosys et al.

I was brought up in an Urban city, English is the only language I've learnt right from childhood and continue to do so, the language that I'm most fluent in. (yes I can't read or write my native tongue). I do agree that lying on resumes is widespread that some of us (who believe we're upto snuff in our fields) don't bother to bring resumes to job interviews, usually we're contacted by recruiters/hiring teams based on our past projects.

I grew up in Mumbai as well. You are probably from upper-middle class, so I don't think all Mumbaikars would classify as learning English as the only language. I think you are in the minority.

I'm going off on a tangent here, but even if English is the only language you speak, it doesn't necessarily make you fluent at communicating with Americans, because you aren't necessarily exposed to the same cultural and linguistic nuances. This can often lead to a lot of miscommunication.

I have met many Indians who are fluent in English and it's the "only thing" they speak and they wear it as a badge with pride. Ironically, these people are worse than the people who are not as fluent in English because they tend to speak English at extremely high speeds as if they are reciting something, which makes it just as hard to understand. And combine that with an accent, and you've lost all the advantage you have as a "native" English speaker.

I'm not from Mumbai, but from Chennai and have worked in Bangalore. I do speak other languages, English is the one I'm most fluent in. I don't wear this as a badge of pride, it's just the reality.

I do agree that there could be a little bit of a cultural disconnect, accent could be an issue as well. Although it's surprising that those "fluent in English" would have no ideas about stress, intonation, etc but I digress. I wouldn't class myself as a native speaker, only one who is able to communicate properly with a native speaker.

It isn't just lying on resumes, my Indian colleagues have horror stories of the levels of cheating they experienced doing their CS degrees at Indian universities. They all felt they had to do an MSc at a UK university, at huge expense, in order to be validated because those institutions are trusted.

Totally agree, I'm planning a similar route as well (albeit at American institutions). It's sad how stereotypes affect others who don't necessarily conform to them.

"become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising)"

That is not very nice of you. Sure everyone wants the best options for their careers no matter where they are, but don't say these things loosely.

I live in America and to be honest, it is still one of the most immigrant friendly countries in the world. Yes they have difficult and archaic immigration rules which need to be improved.

If you are truly good, then companies from the US will hire you remotely. I know that it is possible even though a bit more difficult. A lot of tech companies have opened local offices in India and they pay really well.

Sorry you couldn't detect my sarcasm. But it's disheartening to see U.S. of all places succumb to such stuff [1]. U.S. was built on enterprising immigrants who made it the country it currently is. No other country could then stake a claim to be a melting pot of the world nor could they dominate in so many industries. Software Engineering elsewhere is just following the lead established by American companies.

I work with Startups more often than with established companies (I work with interdisciplinary teams) and for a fledgling startup to onboard a remote employee is risky.

[1] - When a leading Presidential candidate wants to block you from entering the country because of your faith, I'd say most others would resort to stronger words.

The US has been anti-immigrant for pretty much it's entire history. Whether you were Irish, Polish, Chinese, Catholic, Mexican, Jewish, Muslim, whatever - at some point, a vocal group of Americans didn't want you to come here. But people came anyway. And they made it work. I can't think of any other country on Earth that is as diverse as the US.

> I can't think of any other country on Earth that is as diverse as the US.

The U.S. is actually not that diverse. It's middle-of-the-road in that category (ethnically [0] and culturally [1]). In fact, both of its neighboring countries are rated higher.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16...

[1] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and...

There's two examples of immigrants that came here without strong opposition. The initial immigrants from Europe (which didn't work out so well for the indigenous population) and African slaves (which didn't work out so well for the population entering the country).

It's always seemed to me that part of the American culture is a determination that comes partly from the mentality of immigrating despite the objections of the people already here. The people who needed to be welcomed stayed in their own countries and the headstrong people who just didn't care came to the US.

It almost America's version of fraternity hazing or that hellish 201 course that winnows the field down to just those willing to endure unpleasantness to achieve their goals.

That's an interesting perspective. "Natural selection" for future citizens.

How about Surinam? The only thing they currently don't have is a lot of Caucasians.

Don't be disheartened at [1]. All of the leadership for "his" party came out of the woodwork to condemn his rhetoric. They will now coalesce around a more acceptable candidate. Note he has only had about 25% of 1/2 of the voters. Or about 12.5% total. He will fall and be opposed exactly for this. No matter what your political party just about everyone in the US understands freedom of religion is a foundation (except that one, now obviously, fringe candidate).

He's a close second (Cruz is a distant 3rd) in the betting odds.


a rather selfish approach to keep things polite.

- you want us to be more xenophobic, but in the same time steal local jobs for yourself, with our pay, but your local expenses. just WOW

- there are specific laws to prevent what you want to do, at least in some cases. it's called protection of local market, and a very good think to do, helps economy long term.

- again, xenophobic WHAT? I sit in 1 row here with Swiss, British (err... Scotch), Belgian, Kiwi, Chinese, French, Dutch, Ukrainian, Indian, Philippino etc. No issues whatsoever.

- you have a naive view of how good remote Indian resources are. technical skills happen to be OK in many cases, but all remaining, and at least EQUALLY necessary are not. 0 initiative, 0 willingness to take any risk/personal responsibility for decisions. "please hand me over perfect spec and I'll get it done" is nice, but doesn't work in world without perfect spec, or any spec at all. Plus Bangalore is not cheap anymore, Pune is so-so. Eastern Europe wins so far in price/value ratio.

and I could go on and on... one strongly suspect troll there :)

>err... Scotch

Wouldn't recommend calling us Scots "Scotch". We're not whisky ;)

Isn't British inoffensive to Scots? Odd he decided to bundle an entire nation with whiskey :P

I think people in the UK who refer to themselves as "British" are actually in the minority - most people I know would say they are English, Scottish etc.

It's inoffensive but can be taken hesitantly as a lot of people seem to mistakenly think it's synonymous with "English".

my bad (and your mistake for making such a damn good drink :))

Thanks for the morning chuckle....

That was sarcasm, sorry you couldn't detect it. Some of us love to travel and experience other cultures.

I'm well aware of traditional "Indian resources", one's that are trained over a 3 month period and passed off as "Expert in his field", and coached to give B.S. responses while they scour for another underling with better skills suited for the project.

But there are others who truly understand the product needs, and aren't afraid to engage in a discussion to figure out the best outcome for the product rather than to satisfy the clients.

> you want us to be more xenophobic, but in the same time steal local jobs for yourself, with our pay, but your local expenses. just WOW

Keeping things polite is a good intention, but this is far from keeping things polite.

> be harassed by less-qualified xenophobic residents

Nice generalization.

> pay obscene taxes

I quickly skimmed the wikipedia article about taxes in India and it seems like if you were to earn as much as companies in Europe are paying for developers you would be either in 30% bracket or 20% bracket. 30% is more than I pay and I live in Europe. Doesn't seem obscene to me.

I have family in the U.K. and the U.S., and my family members in the U.K. have been told "to go back home" when they've been born & raised in that country. Could be a generalisation but one which my family has experienced.

Honestly surprised that you pay lesser taxes than us. Not sure which country you're from. I expected the EU to have similar tax brackets. My tax rant was more to do with the fact that taxes contribute to the very citizens' that complain.

Also taxes in India are a lower amount comparatively because it's base salaries and CoL is much lower to begin with. A SE with Google or Amazon India makes about ~ $24,000.

> Could be a generalisation

What's the total number of people your family had contact with vs number of people that told them 'to go back home'?

> but one which my family has experienced.

To quote hn favorite "The plural of anecdote is not data".

Do you live in EU and think that you won't qualify?

Or are you living in India and complaining that you won't qualify to work in companies that are expecting people from EU to contact them?

This is a newsletter that picks job listings from remote working job boards (mostly WeWorkRemotely), based on timezones, not nationality.

Sorry, but what part of the world isn't anti-immigrant? In my experience, the East, esp. India, China, Japan, the Arab world are extraordinarily more anti-immigrant with more entrenched race-based outlooks than the US. How is there no cognitive dissonance being from an incredibly racist society yet scoffing at the US for not opening the doors to immigrant workers more? It's not the US - it's the world we live in, and the US is not close to the worst.

While I definitely don't agree with this sentiment

> I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising)

I definitely agree with everything else you just said. I'm a Swiss citizen, Swiss born and raised, US educated, but my parents are not from Switzerland, and my name is not Swiss. I look as European as anybody else.

I couldn't even get a data entry job in Switzerland dammit. The US companies where asking for relocation, and if remote only at a 3-4x lower salary. I can't stand the US car culture (I'm a walkable city guy) so relocation was not an option for me.

Ended up doing a startup in my parent's home country. Fully bootstrapped, great revenue, great quality of life. 10-15% income tax.

With global health insurance, superb quality of life, walkable cities, cheap everything, no discrimination against you... Why would anybody want to move to the EU or US nowadays?

Hmm. There are many reasons why you might not want to relocate to the US, but car culture should not be one of them. Depending on the city, it is entirely possible (nay, often preferable) to live without a car.

See https://www.walkscore.com/ and try typing in various cities or zip codes.

I've been to every major US city. Compared to European or most Asian cities they are simply not walkable.

Notable semi-exceptions might be Downtown SF, Manhattan, and Vancouver in Canada. But all of them have serious drawbacks when it comes to public transportation and rent prices.

correct me if I am wrong, but if I understood correctly:

- your parents are non-swiss and non-european, but came here, got you citizenship and adter growing up here you moved to US for university and stayed away - is that right?

You shouldn't be surprised what they asked from you - relocation. There are specific laws who companies can employ here, and noone is going to break the law just because you would like to set things up your way. If they allowed that, in couple of years Suisse in many ways would be gone as we know it. As you well know, it's a tiny job market with high salaries. they need to keep people spending their earned cash here. Your citizenship doesn't make any difference, it's not xenophobia or anything, just simple laws that people and companies here follow.

- taxes you mention are possible here too, it's super safe here even compared to rest of Europe (US is simply uncomparable) etc. If you are happy where you are, great for you! All you describe is from my view valid about Switzerland too.

The Swiss example I gave was for staying in Switzerland. I couldn't get a decently paying job in Switzerland as a European (SEE), Swiss citizen, living in Switzerland. At that point I wasn't discussing remote jobs at all. I kid you now, at one point one of the HR people told me jokingly in an interview "I thought you people do nly do Football" WTF??

The problem is that Swiss companies certainly hire you if you have a foreign background (as long as you can do the job), but they will think twice about it, and they expect you to accept a considerably lower salary as a "foreigner" too.

When everybody in the industry talks about "talent shortage" what they really mean is "talent shortage at a lower price point". They get to the lower price point by exploiting immigrants or as in my case people they consider foreigners.

> I thought you people do nly do Football

That got a chuckle out of me. Gotta blame Shaqiri, Xhaka, etc for being so good :)

What is your home country? As a digital nomad I am always on the lookout for great quality-of-living : cost-of-living ratios!

Any South Eastern Europe coast city does it really. I personally like nature and silence every now and then so I stay at Albanian Riviera Villages May-July and Mid-September-October.

If you know the young scene and make friends quickly, as a digital nomad Prishtina, Split, Belgrade are also awesome. Try Istanbul if you really like a lively city.

Sounds wonderful to be honest. Where is your company incorporated in? Would love to contact you but there's no info on your HN profile.

Just updated my profile if anybody is interested. We hire globally and remotely.

Yes, what a shame it would be for you to have to pay 1st world standard of taxes. I mean, clearly India has it all figured out on how to build a functional society without such an obscene tax burden.

> and pay obscene taxes (by third-world standards) that in the end does serve them.

Of course, that is the whole point. It has to serve our economy primarily. No one is against India having it's own strong economy, why would anyone, but it is not our business to improve your economy.

It sounds harsh but no one except your own people will improve your economy. You do it yourselves or no one will.

> I'd love for the EU and the US to become more Anti-immigrant (thankfully it's rising) and for the populace to wake up once the industries that kept them at the top move out of there.

Why would you wish that there is more anti-immigrant sentiment or even worse racism? (that sadly is happening right now)

Aside from that your logic is faulty. These businesses move somewhere else because our business elite decides so and the legal framework for doing so is set up by our political elites and guess what: It is done in a way to primarily improve our own economies or our political power.

If the political elite doesn't like something about the policies of country X they will put sanctions in place and our business elite will (with a few exceptions) follow.

> I'm Westernized, loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome, but thanks to nationalities and nationalists the U.S. has imposed these arbitrary impediments designed to keep away those willing to move from their native countries to further their careers.

We are nation states with citizenships and borders. All of our states primarily serve their own citizens, not others.

There is no human right allowing me to live in Monaco, Tokyo or New Dheli just because I want to further my career. The only exception is asylum for persons that are threatened in their own countries, but aside from that there is no obligation whatsoever.

As a slightly bitter 'European' I would welcome you in a heartbeat.

The real problem (for us) is that the quality of immigrants differs by a very large margin. Countries like France and Belgium (where I have lived) rather let in the first 10,000 applicants vs the best 10,000.

The US is far far better in that regards with Canada probably being the best example imo.

Forgive my ignorance, but could you elaborate or link to a source on the legal difficulties of working remotely?


I think you may be reading malice or prejudice that isn't here brother (or sister):

"loved America & the U.K. when I visited them and the people were awesome.. .."

I have been an immigrant in a bunch of places. Most people are awesome, especially personally. Some people are xenophobic, especially politically. IE, when people are thinking politically and abstractly abstractly about migrants they tend more towards xenophobia. The place where you feel this most is at the immigration office where they make you feel unwanted and make sure you know you know you are owed nothing. Also when the politicians talk.

Anyway… Who says you shouldn't feel entitled to live peacefully and lawfully anywhere? These rules didn't come with the world. We made them. There have been different rules in different times and places. Should you feel entitled to leave any country you want? How about internal migration, like moving from New York to Minnesota? How about changing profession?

None of these were rights until and unless we made them rights.

If what you say is true, why do do many EU and US tech companies go through the effort of finding, interviewing and relocating foreign workers? Just for kicks?

It looks to me that you got upset by the parent's unrestrained comment and pushed back in the same spirit.

I don't blame him to be honest. My comment was indeed unrestrained but not untrue.

P.S. I'd like to get in touch with you if possible.

They don't have to. I'm talking about the 85,000 yearly H-1B employees + OPT workers. I never slighted U.S. for not having skilled workers, in fact I did mention that U.S. are pretty much pioneers in Software Engineering, CS, etc, they set trends which are copied elsewhere.

Remote workers by contrast would be a cheaper alternative for a business than a H-1B employee since they have to adhere to certain conditions and maybe spend to apply for a GC if the employee requests it.

India has the worst bureaucracies due to corruption and inefficiency (thankfully it's set to change). Nobody would debate that.

I'm aware of incidents where H-1B workers couldn't visit their home country for their parents' funeral because of some document issues. Also, I fail to see how offensive and prejudiced my comments are for pointing out incidents of harassment. And my entire premise is that they don't have to if remote working is an option, thanks for agreeing with me on that.

> You are very delusional

> With an attitude like that it's maybe not very surprising

Personal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News, so please edit them out of your comments here.

How are you filtering these jobs? Six jobs in a week (the interval between emails) seems a bit on the low end to me. Maybe you apply very strict criteria for including a job on the list?

I couldn't resist and applied a similar filter to the jobs / gigs I found for my own service, SendGigs. I require one of the the tags full-time or salary, and exclude everything that is tagged US-only. Then I'm left with 20 jobs, see https://www.sendgigs.com/2015-12-10

So at least to me it looks like there is a lot of remote opportunities for non-US developers. And it is getting better with more and more companies figuring out remote work.

Note that to submit jobs, here's the link: http://europeremotely.com/submit_job.html

(I started writing this as a question but found the answer myself in the footer links...)

We're based roughly around London time -- though we now have developers from Costa Rica to Bangalore. Bangalore was easy, though, and US timezones were harder. The gap in timezones there is big enough that it took us a while to jump that successfully (and people working in US timezones still need to be fairly independent), so I imagine it works similarly in the other direction (US-based companies hiring EU-based remote workers)... once the gap is more than 3-4 hours you either need an established core of senior full-stack people in that timezone range, or just proceed quite carefully and offer extra support.

I think Bangalore is easier to work with because they adapt, not you - i.e. it is generally easier to stay up late than getting up early.

I very nearly managed an application from my iPhone

The Elixr position had a "apply with LinkedIn" which worked surprisingly well (must look into how, that seems a sellable app), and I almost had an online CV to upload. Almost.

How about remote admin jobs? I have quite a few free time, and would easily take a 2nd job remotely.

This is great! Would love something like this for broader roles in the tech field, though

This is great. Thanks for sharing. Is there a Japanese version?

A section for devops would be nice as well.

Most of the links of that newsletter are from weworkremotely.com that has a DevOps section


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