In Turkey, we've seen on TV or heard of many families turning in their children many many times. In fact, the suicide-bomber-brothers who killed upwards of a hundred victims in Ankara were reported to be islamic state militants multiple times by their parents. They've reported them many times to different authorities.
Death of a hundred people may be alien to French, but it is not alien to us. It's middle east, both killers and the victims are often muslims. And muslims themselves are the ones that suffer the most from this radicalism.
> Since extremist sects recruit from within moderate sects, the moderates need to be more diligent in truly eliminating the extremist element. That means more consequences to the community. Which is unfair, but it's either that or the rise of the 'Sixth Reich' in a generation because right now, we're just kicking the can down the road.
It's not easy for the moderate muslim to avoid extremism. And I speak as an irreligious agnostic. Fact is that if they are not in Turkey, they are either in direct contact with war, or a subject of a kingdom. And then there's Iran. And Turkey is not the most serene place either. Here, the west is to blame. They drew these borders in the middle east after WWI, they spoiled them in the 20th century. Now if this "Sixth Reich", if I understand you correctly, is a threaten of genocide, I will not be shocked. That is the best possible fruit of the western canon, which is built on the extermination of the other and national pride, with the motto "it's not sin if we do it".
A hundred people died in Paris, and all EU now wants to taste muslim blood. That's mundane here in middle east. The most serene of the countries has at least two wars at the border. Isis bombs mosques, kills people for being of a different sect of islam; and it rapes children, enslaves women, steals immigrants' goods here, in the middle east. Before it was Saddam, etc. But the fact is that since WWI there has been a power that killed innocent people here. Neither France nor any other europeans are in real danger. All that happened was a side effect of what they did, how they messed up the life here, always for imperial affairs.
I may go on, but I'll finish here. You're not the europe that built the Roman Empires, you're the europe that made them suffer and die. You're no more good than islamist terrorists. The world is a bad place because of your empire building games.
And that's why there's still hope for Turkey.
> In fact, the suicide-bomber-brothers who killed upwards of a hundred victims in Ankara were reported to be islamic state militants multiple times by their parents. They've reported them many times to different authorities.
Well, plenty of people do think that Erdogan is strongly sympathetic to ISIS...
> Here, the west is to blame.
Can blame all you want, but what's done is done. Canada (or rather British territories in North America) was once at war with the Americans. We were at war with the Germans (twice). We got over it.
> The world is a bad place because of your empire building games.
Don't pretend the Islamic world didn't participate in the same. How many cultures were destroyed by Islamic conquests? Remember, Turkey wasn't always Turkish. Istanbul wasn't always Istanbul.
If the West is so vengeful, why IS Istanbul still Istanbul?
I do not believe that he has emotions. It's all money and power, IMO. And he is as representative of his people as Hitler is of today's Germans. And it's not that Europe is enemies with him.
> Can blame all you want, but what's done is done.
Then you should have the same approach to terrorist attacks too. See, ideas have the bad side effect of applying to a wider spectrum than you intend.
> Canada (or rather British territories in North America) was once at war with the Americans. We were at war with the Germans (twice). We got over it.
You got over it helping each other. You didn't exterminate Germans for the bad they did. Revenge will not bring peace. It'll bring more revenge.
> Don't pretend the Islamic world didn't participate in the [empire building games.]
I'm not a muslim, and I do not have any sympathy for any religion or empire. The world progresses, and what I do not like is the pride that people try to hold on to. My words should boil down to "we are different faces of the same evil". In the end, West has had more chance to mess it up than the muslims, and they've never ceased to do so. Where are the native americans?
> If the West is so vengeful, why IS Istanbul still Istanbul?
It is Istanbul now. Who knows what'll happen tomorrow?
If it's all money and power, he's throwing his lot in with the wrong players IMO.
> Then you should have the same approach to terrorist attacks too.
I would be glad to think the same of terrorist attacks. Unfortunately they're an almost daily occurrence.
> You didn't exterminate Germans for the bad they did. Revenge will not bring peace. It'll bring more revenge.
Yes it will. And if we did nothing today, Islamists would still be seeking revenge tomorrow.
> It is Istanbul now. Who knows what'll happen tomorrow?
Here's 2 predictions.
Option 1: Erdogan gets voted out, and it returns to be a vibrant world capital.
Option 2: Erdogan stays the course, pisses enough people off that NATO sells him out to the Russians who, along with the Greeks, would love to 'liberate' Constantinople...
Not in the Europe. That's our problem.
> Yes it will. And if we did nothing today, Islamists would still be seeking revenge tomorrow.
To whom? From whom does the west want revenge. This is the question. And apparently there are some people who'd say from all muslims, or from all arabs. You, and the other guy who responded me seem to be of that ilk. There are muslims like you, who seek a revenge from the whole non-muslim. We call these fundamentalist, radicals, etc. These are identical to you, with the difference of possessing less power. I hope all the people I refer here die painful deaths, that you wish upon innocents.
You're not making a great case here...
> that you wish upon innocents
Show me where I've wished bodily harm to people who are innocent. Hopefully what you're saying is a language misunderstanding, I do tend to use some flowery language when writing in English...
Bad often has to be done so that More Bad for More People won't happen.
And before we catigate Europe, let's not forget that there are a substantial number of sectarian and ethnic minority/majority tensions even inside of the Muslim governed world. No one is without blood on their hands.
I concur. I just picked the side of the rather-under-represented. Neither am I a Rome or Ancient Greece fan.
> Bad often has to be done so that More Bad for More People won't happen.
Bad will always bring more bad with it. You can try to kill all the muslims, you'll end up with another terrorist sect, just from a different religion. Or you'll terrorise other moderate muslims, should you not be able to kill them all, and make them into terrorists. A vicious cycle of violence is only broken via virtue.
Eh, we'll agree to disagree there. Find me some good in this world that isn't backed by bad somewhere in history, and I'll show you a situation where pacifist lives could have been saved with a more aggressive approach.