Can you imagine the reaction if there was a technical conference for men only - and a women could only attend as the guest of a man?
There are far too many grants/scholarships/opportunities that are explicitly only open to women or minorities (I'm a minority and it still bothers me). A hypothesis of implicit discrimination against group A does not justify explicit discrimination against group B.
This happens all the time in the tech (and Math/Science) community and it really bothers me. This workshop in particular is one that I would have liked to attend, but am being excluded from because of my gender.
Frankly, I don't know any women who would be interested in attending a 2-day RoR workshop so I can't go as a 'guest' - and I don't think that is too unusual.
This reminds me of all the clever kids in school during Black History Month who would ask, "And when is White History Month?"
The canned answer is, "The other 11 months of the year are White History Months."
This answer has become trite at this point, but the argument at its core remains valid. Unfortunately, there are serious biases in our society. Correcting those biases is a worthy goal, and one we should pursue. In the mean time, we can use Black History Month and Ruby Workshops for Women to compensate for the biases and at least try to treat the symptoms.
You don't even have to get into a discussion about whether meaningful biases persist. It's hard to go to a dev workshop if you're extremely rusty because you've been taking care of kids for 2 years, or because you've been forced by circumstances to work part-time.
It's also hard to go to a dev workshop if you are rusty because you've spend 2 years studying Judo or 2 years biking around India. Or, for that matter, if you are a man who's been forced by circumstances to work part time.
Spending 2 years engaging in non-development activities (by choice) is not limited to women.
You haven't actually offered an argument for supporting any kind of paid leave. But yes, I do believe that job benefits should be decoupled from having children.
In any case, your mention of circumstances that could apply to people of any gender is a red herring. It's a workshop for women, not a workshop for people returning to the dev workforce after a 2 year hiatus.
If you re-read the thread, I'm not offering a standalone justification for why a women's RoR workshop makes sense. Why bother? It's going to happen whether or not yummyfajitas likes the idea.
I'm offering a reason why a men-only RoR workshop would be offensive when a women-only RoR workshop isn't. A RoR workshop for people returning from long trips abroad also wouldn't be offensive, although the equivalence you imply between the two ideas is weak.
I guess I'm just not following your logic at all. Men-only RoR workshops are offensive but women-only ones are not because people of both genders sometimes leave the workforce for a year or three?
His example of biking around India was stupid, but his logic wasn't. Raising a child is not something that only women do. His counter-example should have been that: a man raising a child.
I had a big long pompous comment here and it's just not as good as tumult's comment, which sums up the situation nicely:
"Yeah, but I mean, if I took up a sudden interest in crocheting or something and the best way to get connected and start learning was to go to a crocheting convention that's 99% female, I'd feel a little awkward/discouraged."
Bringing more women into the profession is a good thing. Having the woman in my life able to throw down in jQuery and even sometimes beat me on pentests is a good thing; you have no idea how much easier it is to build a company with your spouse.
Going to have to disagree with you here. I appreciate your pragmatism on the matter and do wish there were more women in technology BUT I think principles are worth "getting huffy about", and any sort of discrimination based on a genetic roll of the die is fundamentally wrong. Always and forever. In every case. It's stupid, it's Wrong (writ large).
Presumably you have a problem with all the other "women-in-technology" events that occur across the industry? Because you're tilting at windmills, and not even particularly good ones.
As I commented elsewhere in this story, I think a more productive angle would be to try to advertise to and welcome women rather than say "no guys, unless you come as a guest of a girl".
There's a subtle but fundamental difference in those two messages.
While it's easy to appreciate the intent, there has to be a less backwards way to accomplish it.
Maybe run a workshop where the behavior/environment you find offensive is explicitly verboten?
Post it on the walls: this place is "attitude-free, newbie-safe and mama- friendly" and you'll almost definitely drive away the people you don't want there.
I don't think that would be as effective as directly marketing an event at a group of people. A group of people who might feel that traditional events in that field were just not welcoming.
In fact, I think you'd just end up with a pretty normal tech workshop (male dominated), but without some of the (rare) 'edgier' content that some of the Rails guys seem to relish. Business as normal then.
On a more serious note, I think its a good idea to hold outreach events for getting minorities working on your platform or industry. There arent many women in tech, trying to do something to increase the number is a good thing.
A man whining about not being able to attend a single tech event is laughable. The industry (and the culture of the industry) is so overwhelming male dominated. It's not like you are missing out on anything.
If events like these help get more women involved and participating in the industry or community, then more power to them. It certainly beats not doing anything to attract minorities.
If events like these help get more women involved and participating in the industry or community, then more power to them. It certainly beats not doing anything to attract minorities.
A cynical person could say that we already have minorities (e.g. Indians) - we just don't have the popular ones (e.g. women).
That said, I agree about "a man whining about not being able to attend a single tech event". Sometimes we should just grow a pair and suck it up. This really isn't something worth getting worked up about.
You raise an interesting point about how there are minorities and there are Minorities. Are Indians a minority in the IT industry? That probably depends on where you are, and how you are taking count.
When I used the word minority, I meant it purely in a numerical sense. If I was a participant in a female dominated industry, I'd say holding outreach events to attract more men would be a good idea too.
A man whining about not being able to attend a single tech event is laughable. The industry (and the culture of the industry) is so overwhelming male dominated. It's not like you are missing out on anything.
Um, women aren't missing out on anything either. They are just as free to attend the same industry events as men.
Yeah, but I mean, if I took up a sudden interest in crocheting or something and the best way to get connected and start learning was to go to a crocheting convention that's 99% female, I'd feel a little awkward/discouraged.
Because you're a dude? Have you been to mostly-women gatherings before?
I believe that if people go to an event expecting to be treated as an outsider, they will behave in a way that will discourage people from welcoming them.
It's true that some number of guys have treated some women as lesser beings at tech conferences, but it's also true that some number of guys have treated other guys as lesser beings at tech conferences. Geeks are competitive and cliquish. It may be that way with people into crocheting, too; I would almost expect it. But my experience has been that most people are pretty accepting if you show some persistence and genuine interest.
Oh. I'm sure. I've felt it myself, and still do at some events where I feel like a noob.
What I don't see mentioned much in the discussion of women and tech gatherings is that a whole lot of guys feel awkward and unwelcome when attending tech events.
That doesn't necessarily mean there's no misogyny, but it suggests that the feeling of unease people feel is not (always) because of sex, but because some groups just are not so welcoming of outsiders until the outsider demonstrates some chops or other sign of "belonging".
Yup, they're as free to attend the same industry events as anyone else. The same way girls are just as free as the boys to play football, the same way men are just as free to be interested in ballet or (to borrow an example from above) crocheting as women.
How many times have you skidded away from attending an event (professional, social, whatever) because you didn't know anyone there? How many more would you have avoided if you knew everyone there was Not Like You, in some fundamental, if suck-it-up-able, way?
I'm still on the fence in terms of whether minorities (numerically in this industry) deserve 'special treatment' - but if members of a minority choose to reach out to each other (networking events, dinners, scholarships), who are we to criticize?
Is girls playing football really the example you want to use? FYI, girls don't play football because most girls are too weak and slow to play (for biological reasons). Regarding ballet, men are actively encouraged to join ballet due to the fact that ballet (unlike coding) has explicit male/female roles and a shortage of men willing to fill those roles.
In any case, I'm not criticizing, just pointing out a bad argument. They can have their little Ruby on Rails "you go girl" event, I have no desire to go. Although I've never attended such an event, I'm told they suck; {Good AND girl} is a much smaller set than simply {good}.
Depends on how crowded the workshop was. Small is good. The crypto class we're giving in Chicago in a couple weeks was deliberately limited to 20 people.
If by throwing away half the prospectives, the remaining half can learn faster or more comfortably, then I'd go with "better", not "just as good".
Edit: The first hit on Google for "ruby type checking" is a post about adding it to Ruby, which would suggest to me that it's not already in there. Apologies for my ignorance on the matter.
There was never any intention to exclude men from the event, but rather enlist their help in broadening the community. MINSWAN everyone. We're opening the event up to anyone who would like to attend. Check out the blog post here: http://bit.ly/2E9RLm
