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HTML 5: Could it kill Flash and Silverlight? (yahoo.com)
31 points by jeroen 237 days ago | 45 comments


35 points by rythie 237 days ago | link

I hope so

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2 points by poppysan 237 days ago | link

I for one, see no problem with a properly done flash project (not bad amateur work). We can argue open-ness, but realistically it amazes me that everyone is wishing for something that already exists!

(prepared to be down-voted for liking flash)

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7 points by kqr2 237 days ago | link

For a transition strategy, I think the browser makers should make an HTML5 plugin that's as easy to install as the flash player.

Therefore web application developers can have more confidence in developing with HTML5 since it will work on legacy browsers.

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2 points by ROFISH 237 days ago | link

Safari 3.1 already supported most things (4 is still missing WebSockets). Firefox 3.5 (out soon) is a massive update to add missing HTML5 features and their updates are automatic and very transparent.

You can start doing HTML5 today and be assured that a nontrivial portion of your audience will support it out-of-box when 3.5 rolls around.

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1 point by buugs 237 days ago | link

You kind of missed the point... html 5 isn't going to hit it big if it only has that portion they need to be easily accessible to the entire audience.

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1 point by ZeroGravitas 237 days ago | link

That's what Google Gears is.

There's also been various talks about replacing the Javascript engine in IE (ScreamingMonkey project), ActiveX video/audio players using Ogg codecs, Google's got a project to implement Canvas in IE and an unreleased one implemeting SVG using IE's VML support etc.

A surprising number of things can be achieved with Javascript shims.

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1 point by mcav 237 days ago | link

Maybe a really annoying "upgrade your browser" message that doesn't ever go away?

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7 points by zokier 237 days ago | link

Does HTML5 have authoring tools comparable to Flash? There is your answer

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3 points by TweedHeads 237 days ago | link

Yes, it is called a text editor.

html, css, js, canvas, svg, xml, etc. all can be authored easily with a basic text editor.

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4 points by redcap 237 days ago | link

I'm sure that html,etc can be _written_ with a basic text editor, but I'm not convinced that's the easiest way to get things done.

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3 points by diN0bot 237 days ago | link

really. why?

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4 points by kqr2 237 days ago | link

Flexbuilder (now Flashbuilder) is nice because you can easily switch between the source code and design/layout view. It also takes care of all the build dependencies.

For pure programmers this isn't a big deal but for someone who is more design oriented, it's a lot easier.

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5 points by tjmc 237 days ago | link

I think Flex trades off user experience to make developers' lives easier though. That's never the right choice IMHO.

Every Flex app I've seen, no matter how simple, starts with a "Loading" popup. Flex apps also notoriously overreach by reimplementing everything in Flash rather than use HTML where appropriate. It's great to have good tools, but they should never produce an inferior product.

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1 point by poppysan 237 days ago | link

That's not the right choice for a non-visual programmer maybe. But its popularity is partially due to it being designer friendly.

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1 point by mikeliu 237 days ago | link

I think what he meant was a text editor is useless for frame-based animation. Flash programmers are "visual programmers." I don't think there's any good way (at least not now) to program animations without a visual ide -- and I don't mean simple transitions in a javascript webapp.

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1 point by TweedHeads 237 days ago | link

You would be surprised by the wonders you can do with a text editor and SVG

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5 points by enomar 237 days ago | link

I wish. Flash will continue working on IE 6 and other older browsers though. Until all the browsers you want to support have HTML 5 implemented (correctly), you're going to have to either use Flash or some hybrid/piecemeal solution.

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6 points by lhorie 237 days ago | link

Not only that, creating animations in Flash tend to be a lot faster than anything else. Very often at my job we opt to use Flash for things that could technically be done with straight HTML/CSS/JS, simply because the former would take orders of magnitude less time to create (and that time can be invested into polishing, etc).

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0 points by mindhacker 237 days ago | link

Not to mention the size. A HTML + CSS + JS (jQuery) implementation of a simple component such as a menu would end up being ~50KB. In flash it turns out to be less than 1KB.

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3 points by slig 237 days ago | link

Most of it can be cacheable, so it's not a problem.

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4 points by LostInTheWoods 237 days ago | link

The answer is Yes. The real question is 'when?'. My guess is it will take some time before Flash and its competitors finally join the dinosaurs. It will be slowed down by html5 adoption and by the need for tools/libraries that take canvas to the level of what flash can do today.

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4 points by abstractbill 237 days ago | link

Not unless it gives me access to the user's webcam (but I'd love to see it happen).

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3 points by dimarco 237 days ago | link

Silverlight might not make it. Flash will be fine. The Flex + AIR combination is pretty solid, and I'm looking forward what we[my company] can do with AIR once we get our application rewritten in Flex.

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3 points by taitems 237 days ago | link

Radio, the death of newspapers? Television, the death of radio? Internet TV, the death of television? Silverlight, the death of flash? HTML 5, the death of flash AND silverlight?

This reads like a TechCrunch headline.

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5 points by Scriptor 237 days ago | link

To be fair HTML5 and Flash/Silverlight aren't really comparable to the different media formats. They're just different ways of doing the exact same thing. It'd be more like analog vs. digital.

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3 points by jbarciauskas 237 days ago | link

Sounds more like a VHS/Betamax debate... an open standard against a closed, but more technically sophisticated, standard

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1 point by derefr 237 days ago | link

Have there ever been any media that have died?

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3 points by taitems 237 days ago | link

telegram?

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2 points by Retric 237 days ago | link

Telegram as media... Encoding messages to be transmitted point-to-point long distances over copper wire. If anything it just evolved telegram > ticker tape > computer networks. Signal fires > road flares. Smoke signal's > Rescue flares given to pilots etc.

Protocol's might die (Apple Talk, Analog TV), but technology's tend to just find a niche.

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2 points by kragen 237 days ago | link

You're not familiar with the Dead Media Working Notes?

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1 point by bbsabelli 237 days ago | link

cassette?

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2 points by joezydeco 237 days ago | link

This line really bugged me:

"Google may also face some touchy decisions. For example, its YouTube subsidiary uses Flash for its video, but the inclusion of HTML 5 capabilities in browsers might cause YouTube to rethink that decision, notes Fette. "It's a cost/benefit analysis that they'd need to make."

I know Yahoo! doesn't like to drink the Google koolaid, but they should have at least paid attention to the fact that Google has been converting the video on YouTube from FLV to H.264 for some time now. They launched it alongside iPhone (no flash player there, remember?)

If HTML5 got enough momentum, you'd see the FLV content on YouTube disappear overnight.

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2 points by poppysan 237 days ago | link

Actually since flash player 9, flv's have supported H.264 video.

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1 point by joezydeco 237 days ago | link

Very true, and something I realized I didn't mention. But I think that shows Adobe is hedging it's bet on FLV and the ON2 codec.

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2 points by Oompa 237 days ago | link

Maybe if we ever end up using it.

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2 points by TweedHeads 237 days ago | link

Canvas will make a dent

SVG will finish it

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1 point by ideamonk 237 days ago | link

Yaay!

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1 point by radley 237 days ago | link

cough : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=661026

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0 points by cookiecaper 237 days ago | link

No, IE will not support it for many more years, making any real-world deployment impractical.

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-1 points by bvttf 237 days ago | link

Man, fuck silverlight, Microsoft should kill flash by pushing HTML5. It's not like they need to gain much marketshare, just not-lose it.

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2 points by Zak 237 days ago | link

Microsoft wants everything to be on .NET. HTML5 doesn't further that goal any more than Flash does.

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1 point by bbsabelli 237 days ago | link

Silverlight allows .Net developers to target a Rich web interface from Visual Studio. If you program in windows, you'll naturally choose Silverlight. If you want to develop using open standards, you'll choose html 5. Flash will be gone.

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4 points by poppysan 237 days ago | link

Why do you assume programming in windows == microsoft affinity. Im a windows man and am openly anti silverlight. I am actually amazed its survived this long...

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1 point by bbsabelli 237 days ago | link

Reasons?

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2 points by bvttf 237 days ago | link

Okay, so maybe don't fuck silverlight and give us <video> to attack flash from both ends? And a pony?

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