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I think I may already practice everything this blog post tells me to, but I still feel insulted, both on my behalf and on behalf of people I know. The author comes off as a real dick. I can't point to any recommendation in the post I specifically disagree with, but I'm pretty confident if he met me he'd find some reason to think I'm a loser. And my whole family. And most of my friends.

Maybe it's because I don't take the same snotty attitude toward the "mediocrity" of consumer purchases. Maybe it's because I recognize that the "draining" and "grating" experience of using "piece of shit" stuff is, in many cases, entirely relative. My car is less a draining piece of shit than a $15,000 car and more a draining piece of shit than a $30,000 car. My television is less a piece of shit than a $1000 television and more a piece of shit than a $2000 television.

There's no magical way to get beyond "piece of shit" when there's always a better, more expensive item available. The shirts I buy are not as nice as the $200 shirts I'd buy if I were not paying careful attention to my spending. I tried to buy a sport coat a few months ago. I'm not really comfortable buying fancy clothes, so I just wandered around randomly for a week before giving up, but what do you know, the perfect jacket I found (not in my size, but perfect fabric) at Armani Exchange cost $2000 marked way down. Apparently I will not be buying a sport coat that makes me feel "quality" and "worth it." My favorite restaurants in town easily run into triple digits for two people or even for one -- I go occasionally and watch what I spend, and on rare occasions I have whatever I want. I don't feel like I'm eating shit and reinforcing the mentality that I'm a cheap piece of crap when I spend $15 on a meal, even if I usually would prefer the $50 meal.

There's no way I can escape those compromises. There's a hell of a lot of better stuff I would buy if I made twice the money I make now. There's no way I can escape consciousness of that better stuff, and there's no way I can escape the fact that there are plenty of people in town who don't have to make the same compromises I do. There's no way I can escape the fact that the fabrics I wear do not feel as nice as the fabrics they wear. There's no escaping the fact that I chose my apartment as a trade-off between niceness and location. I have a crappy apartment in a perfect location; most of my coworkers have beautiful, new houses in distant, desolate suburbs; and a few blocks away from me there are beautiful high-rise condos that are nicer than my coworkers' houses and more centrally located than my crappy apartment. I could afford one of those condos if I stopped contributing to my 401k and stopped saving for a down payment on a house.

Does my choice of apartment make me frugal? I pay more for a central location, which is what I want, so maybe I am following his advice. On the other hand, I pay less by accepting a crappier apartment, so maybe I am not following his advice. Actually, now that I think about it, I cannot be following his advice, because my apartment does not fill me with gratification and self-esteem. Even when I make the right decisions for myself, I never think "Damn, this is great, I am so totally worth this." Instead, I think, "This isn't the best or the worst, but it's the best trade-off for me. Some people who make the same money as me will spend more and have something better, and others will spend less and have something not as good."

I really don't feel bad about it until I run into people like this who ram it down my throat that not having the stuff I really want is supposed to make me feel cheap and unworthy compared to the people who can afford it.

And finally, not that anybody gives a shit anymore, it's just morally wrong to equate possession of higher quality stuff with a higher level of worthiness. If you indulge in the gratifying thought that your nice stuff reflects your superior worthiness, that generalizes to the perception that people with higher quality stuff are higher quality people. It's an inescapable mentality, you can't not think that way, but shouldn't we be working to moderate that prejudice instead of intentionally aggravating it?




I couldn't read past "I'm not worth it". Based on that and your reply here it just seems as though the author is materialistic. They're defining their worth by the quantity and quality of the goods they possess.

I don't see how that's a healthy attitude. I'm probably on an extreme end of the spectrum as I'm pretty minimalistic and don't have many possessions but those I do have are typically of higher quality. I don't buy those things because they make me feel like a better person, that I'm worthy of the higher quality things, or that I deserve them but rather because they generally don't cause me pain. Isn't that why we here on HN try to build high quality software? To solve and cure some kind of pain? I appreciate when a product does that so I'm willing to pay for it.

Qualifying your worth based on what you choose to purchase is short-sighted, physical goods no matter their quality deteriorate in usefulness and lustre with time. Experience, knowledge, and human relationships are enduring. Therefore I reject any notion that a person's worth is valued by the quantity and quality of their possessions.


I read the piece through to the end, and while I don't really like the way he presented it -- there's no need to call anyone a loser -- there is an important message to be shared. That is: care about the experience you give yourself. You clearly get this. Sometimes having fewer possessions results in the experience that we value more. Your views might share more with the author than it appears on the surface.

Where the author and I differ is that I don't always believe "spending more" is the key. More appropriately, spend where it matters. As a corollary, don't spend where it matters as well.


There was a great post on Quora that made a similar end argument, but presented much more logically and respectfully: http://www.quora.com/Life-Advice/What-life-lessons-are-count...

"1. Chasing more and more money is not a route to happiness. You shouldn't try specifically to acquire more money in the hopes that it will make you happy but rather, once you have money, think carefully about how you can use it to increase your happiness.

2. Using money to buy the wrong things (often: things which are popular, things which other people desire, things which require much manual upkeep or worry - see #3) does not result in happiness.

3. People often use money to buy things which they then spend time worrying about, rather than purchasing things which allow them to worry less."

The main argument is that it's not a good idea to be frugal just for the sake of being frugal - both extremes of materialism and the opposite are an unhealthy relationship with money or possessions. Buying better things isn't because "you're worth it", but because in some areas it will genuinely make your life a better experience. It's about evaluating all the circumstances and making the best decision rather than applying one credo constantly and repeatedly.


> That is: care about the experience you give yourself.

The key thing is, if you care about the experience you give yourself, it will be easier for you to give the same level of experience to others -- and they more likely than not will appreciate it.


Not quite; the point was, better stuff will last longer, you never have to replace it. It was a utilitarian argument.


No, he did point out some false economies, but the main thrust was the psychological effect of feeling that you've bought nice things for yourself. Buy yourself nice things, then you feel like a princess, and that feeling of self-worth rubs off on the rest of your life. The problem with it is that there's an ugly logic that you can't avoid. If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when I don't get what I want?

If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when I want something I can never have?

If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when others have more than me?

If getting what I want makes me worthy, what does it mean when others have less than me?

If you could isolate the positive, useful aspect -- "I got what I want, and therefore I'm a worthy person" -- then there would be nothing wrong with it. It's good and useful to believe you're a worthy person. Unfortunately, your brain has a certain capacity for logic (even if you're not an engineer or programmer type of person :-P) and you can't prevent it proceeding from that benign intention to its ugly logical reflection. It's logically a zero-sum game, and some of the logically "neutral" effects (assuming a rich person is more worthy than a poor person could be seen as logically neutral) are not really neutral because they are unjust.


Come on, every time I Don't get a piece of candy, I don't think "I must be a bad person". That logic is flawed. It is definitely NOT a zero-sum game. We're talking emotional logic here. Having something nice, for once, can make you feel good. And Not having nice things most of the time, for emotionally well-adjusted people, does not destroy our selfimage. Maybe just the opposite for some.

There's even the spite angle - I buy a crappy screwdriver, it breaks, I swear at it, I feel better. That's a payoff too. So its complicated.


Really? It's a poorly framed one with questionable premises (better quality stuff doesn't always mean the higher priced item), as well as extrapolating his utility function onto that of any reader. For example:

> So what if they’re $100. Unless you’re some sort of foot messenger, you only need to buy one pair a year.

Or buy $30 shoes that last 2 years and are subjectively just as comfortable. Maybe if you're a foot messenger you need better shoes (or go shoeless), maybe if you have bad feet or a bad back you need expensive shoes with Dr. Shoels. Another example?

> Buy scented candle or some potpourri and a stack of washcloths for your bathroom counter. It smells awesome and you feel great when you grab a fresh towel to wash your face every day.

I hate that crap. My point is that people have different utility functions.


I think I can do that too. I think he never really implied that the highest price meant better quality. If you try, you can read that from the article, but there is something else you can read from it.

I think what he was saying was more like: if the difference in costs is smaller than the appreciated gaining in life comfort, then do it, spend the money in the expensive one.

The point being, don't be cheap if not being cheap can make your life better.


Interesting points. (I'm the original author, btw). Some thoughts:

The "loser" word choice, as someone pointed out below, was a double entendre, meant to mean, first, that you're losing in the long run when you make bad/cheap purchases, and second, that I think there is a psychological effect of surrounding yourself with low quality stuff.

Second, I'm really not talking about expensive v. cheap. Most of the stuff I'm talking about, like nail clippers, might be 2-3 times the price of the cheapest you could find, but still well under $10. And, the quality is so much better it makes life easier/more enjoyable.

And, of course there's a way to get beyond "piece of shit" when there's better or more expensive available. There are nail clippers on amazon right now for like $80. That's absurd. And, you can get fantastic meals for $15, or terrible meals for $80. I think that's kind of missing the point. We're talking about quality here, which isn't always synonymous with price.

As to the psychological effect: I don't think anyone literally thinks "damn, I'm worth this" (maybe occasionally as a rationalization?) or "damn, I'm not worth it". But, I really do think that there is some psychological effect of surrounding yourself with cheap, shitty quality stuff that never quite works right. Whether that's morally wrong or not, I think people do this to themselves (I've got no studies to back this one up, btw, just what I've observed). I also think there's a psychological upside to surrounding yourself with well-made and well-designed stuff. If nothing more, it frees up some neurons from getting angry at shit that doesn't work well, but even more so, for me at least, it helps creativity.


My budget which keeps my working on my startup is roughly $10/day. Explain to me why I, using nail clippers once a month, would spend $7 more dollars (my entire food budget for a day) on better nail clippers.

Small stuff adds up dude.


You're either exceptional, or live somewhere where the cost of living is very low compared to America. Even in the scuzzy college dives here in Raleigh, NC, it would be a struggle to live on $10/day ($300/month); my share of a 4-way rent split on a reasonably-decent apartment is >$300/mo.

If you're living on $300/mo in America, or somewhere with a similar cost of living (it sounds like the OP is), realize that (statistically speaking) the majority of the author's audience doesn't share your financial situation.

If you're living somewhere with a considerably lower cost of living, adjust the price of "better than bargain-bin" nail clippers for your locale, then reconsider the point the author is making.

Also, don't use nail clippers if the example doesn't fit your situation. I use nail clippers every week or two, so it's a good example for me. For you? Buy the paper plates that don't get soggy, and aren't so flimsy that you need two hands to keep your food from spilling. Or invest in a nice set of real plates once that you can use forever, instead of buying paper plates every couple of weeks.

Generalize. Don't reject the OP's point just because one specific example doesn't fit your lifestyle.


$10/day ignoring rent, sorry. The thing is, there is no point spending extra money on things you don't care about. None. Thinking otherwise is an unfortunate habit that a lot of people (myself included) pick up. "Oh, I'll buy the middle of the road X because it probably is better than the cheap one." It's a habit I've spent a lot of mental energy trying to unlearn and I apologize if I get a little touchy when people suggest I "don't respect myself" when I attempt to be cost-effective. I would much rather be defined by the stuff I make than the stuff I buy.




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